Ferrari F1-75

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
blinds0r
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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bagajohny wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:22 pm
GrrG wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 8:43 pm
Miami GP Telemetry: RedBull is not ahead for top speed

https://www.formulapassion.it/opinioni/ ... 16933.html
Great article. Very helpful analysis. Thanks for sharing.

Agreed! This is something I noticed as well, Ferrari were consistently losing out in the middle twisty sector, which everyone (including me) assumed Ferrari would be faster at. That RB seems to have incredible mechanical grip. Doesn't bode well for Ferrari for tracks like Monaco/Baku/Singapore....

matteosc
matteosc
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM240IV ... Ng&index=2
Interesting video, even if I do not agree 100%. I think Ferrari cannot run a low downforce package with the same efficiency of Red Bull.

Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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matteosc wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 2:24 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 7:05 am
matteosc wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 5:43 pm

Ferrari seems to have more inherent drag then Red Bull (or better, RB has very little drag compared to everyone else). On top of that, Ferrari is using higher downforce (and therefore higher drag) than Red Bull, so the difference in term of top speed is pretty large. If they used the same level of downforce they would probably be closer, but still more drag for Ferrari.
Where do you know the "real" drag of the Ferrari from???
Come on, everyone accepts that Red Bull has less drag then Ferrari. I am not claiming that I know the exact number, but if we cannot say anything unless we have proven and peer-review data we would not have a blog. I stand by what I posted before: qualitatively Ferrari has a less efficient aero than Red Bull.
If you have any indication that Ferrari has less drag than Red Bull, pleas go ahead, I am very curious.
Indications were already given in my previous post together with telemtry in the post of another user.

But anyway -we do only know one thing for sure- Ferrari uses higher downforce rear-wings.And the Rear Wing is the biggest contributior to drag. And thats the main reason for the differences between Ferrari and Red Bull. They have two different approaches. But this does not say anything about the "quality" or "efficiency" of their aero. Also it does not say anything about the "real" drag of both cars. And at the end of the day saying one cars aero is qualitatively less efficient than the other, is just speculation. Nothing else. In relation to aero only one thing is for sure - since the late 70's no F1 car with non-efficient aero was able to fight for the championship. So both cars obviously are very efficient aerodynamically. But they have two different approaches and concepts. Everything else is pure speculation. Not more, not less.
matteosc wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 8:44 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM240IV ... Ng&index=2
Interesting video, even if I do not agree 100%. I think Ferrari cannot run a low downforce package with the same efficiency of Red Bull.
I totally agree with you. Ferrari cannot run a low downforce package with the same efficiency as Red Bull. Also Red Bull cannot run a high downforce package with the same efficiency as Ferrari. They have different philosophies and concepts, made completely different compromises and trade-offs. This does not work.
Last edited by Andi76 on Tue May 10, 2022 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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henry wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 8:56 am
PhillipM wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:15 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:54 pm
Except you are wrong again. The cars can't just rev a little more as they are all restricted by fuel usage and fuel flow. If they could just rev the engine some more then the Ferrari's wouldn't be topping out on top speed where they are. They would be able to go all the way to where the Red Bull is. The gear ratio's actually play a huge part in how a car performs on acceleration and top speed.
What a load of nonsense, the RPM limit is 15000rpm, peak flow/power is about 10.5-11k or so, these engines are never restricted by the gear ratios for top speeds because they never operate even close to the limiter, the difference of a few hundred rpms on top speeds between the RB and the Ferrari is probably only measurable in their own simulators, it's going to be fractions of a percent.
The 15000rpm limit is a complete red herring. They hardly ever go above 12000. Peak power is around the mid point of the Rev range they use at max power demand, around 11200rpm.

When they run at max power request down a straight it does not mean the power level is constant. It is delivered at several levels in discrete ERS modes. Highest at the beginning of the straight, e-supercharge, followed by a mode in which the K at 120kW is driven by a combination of the H and the ES, and then,if they run out of ES, self-sustain mode in which the K is driven at less than 120kW by the H.

A quick look at speed traces on the longest straight at Miami shows Ferrari dropping to a lower power level before the end. The speed trace actually goes down at the end of the straight showing they don’t have enough power to overcome the drag at the peak speed they reached in a higher power ERS mode.

So you’re right, gear ratios are not the deciding factor, but I think you’re wrong to assert that power is constant.
IIRC Binotto said they chose to have "weaker" ERS, obviously they gained something else.

Maybe they sacrificed some MGU-H power, but gained from ICE.

This could explain why they are slower at the end of the straights(probably not the only reason) and they preform better in Q, then they are in the race..

matteosc
matteosc
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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Andi76 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 8:48 pm
matteosc wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 2:24 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 7:05 am


Where do you know the "real" drag of the Ferrari from???
Come on, everyone accepts that Red Bull has less drag then Ferrari. I am not claiming that I know the exact number, but if we cannot say anything unless we have proven and peer-review data we would not have a blog. I stand by what I posted before: qualitatively Ferrari has a less efficient aero than Red Bull.
If you have any indication that Ferrari has less drag than Red Bull, pleas go ahead, I am very curious.
Indications were already given in my previous post together with telemtry in the post of another user.

But anyway -we do only know one thing for sure- Ferrari uses higher downforce rear-wings.And the Rear Wing is the biggest contributior to drag. And thats the main reason for the differences between Ferrari and Red Bull. They have two different approaches. But this does not say anything about the "quality" or "efficiency" of their aero. Also it does not say anything about the "real" drag of both cars. And at the end of the day saying one cars aero is qualitatively less efficient than the other, is just speculation. Nothing else. In relation to aero only one thing is for sure - since the late 70's no F1 car with non-efficient aero was able to fight for the championship. So both cars obviously are very efficient aerodynamically. But they have two different approaches and concepts. Everything else is pure speculation. Not more, not less.
Ferrari is running an aerodynamic configuration with more drag than Red Bull. I do not think this can be denied. With very similar power units, having ~10km/h difference in top speed can only be due to different drag levels.
What can be however discussed and debated is whether this is due "only" to wing angles and general different downforce levels or also to other factors, such as sidepodes, floor, etc.

All F1 cars are "efficient", but you cannot say that they all have the same exact efficiency, and most importantly not the same efficiency at all downforce levels. Red Bull is objectively running a lower downforce configuration, which of course implies lower drag. My opinion is that Ferrari is not able to run the same level of downforce with the same efficiency (i.e. the same level of drag). I believe that both Red Bull and Ferrari are running a configuration which somehow maximize the efficiency, but this optimal point is a higher downforce and higher drag for Ferrari.

As a side note: anything anyone says here is by definition just a speculation, since no one here has all the data.

Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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matteosc wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:01 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 8:48 pm
matteosc wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 2:24 pm

Come on, everyone accepts that Red Bull has less drag then Ferrari. I am not claiming that I know the exact number, but if we cannot say anything unless we have proven and peer-review data we would not have a blog. I stand by what I posted before: qualitatively Ferrari has a less efficient aero than Red Bull.
If you have any indication that Ferrari has less drag than Red Bull, pleas go ahead, I am very curious.
Indications were already given in my previous post together with telemtry in the post of another user.

But anyway -we do only know one thing for sure- Ferrari uses higher downforce rear-wings.And the Rear Wing is the biggest contributior to drag. And thats the main reason for the differences between Ferrari and Red Bull. They have two different approaches. But this does not say anything about the "quality" or "efficiency" of their aero. Also it does not say anything about the "real" drag of both cars. And at the end of the day saying one cars aero is qualitatively less efficient than the other, is just speculation. Nothing else. In relation to aero only one thing is for sure - since the late 70's no F1 car with non-efficient aero was able to fight for the championship. So both cars obviously are very efficient aerodynamically. But they have two different approaches and concepts. Everything else is pure speculation. Not more, not less.
Ferrari is running an aerodynamic configuration with more drag than Red Bull. I do not think this can be denied. With very similar power units, having ~10km/h difference in top speed can only be due to different drag levels.
What can be however discussed and debated is whether this is due "only" to wing angles and general different downforce levels or also to other factors, such as sidepodes, floor, etc.

All F1 cars are "efficient", but you cannot say that they all have the same exact efficiency, and most importantly not the same efficiency at all downforce levels. Red Bull is objectively running a lower downforce configuration, which of course implies lower drag. My opinion is that Ferrari is not able to run the same level of downforce with the same efficiency (i.e. the same level of drag). I believe that both Red Bull and Ferrari are running a configuration which somehow maximize the efficiency, but this optimal point is a higher downforce and higher drag for Ferrari.

As a side note: anything anyone says here is by definition just a speculation, since no one here has all the data.
We had some telemetry here showing that there is little to no difference in race trim without DRS between the RB and Ferrari. So there is no real evidence for "more efficiency" of Red Bulls aero. Indeed this telemetry even suggests that Ferraris aero is qualitatively more efficient, as they have the same or only slightly less topspeed while running a higher downforce rear-wing. But anyway - its your opinion. At the end of the day nobody knows. And its not even important as the most efficient car is the one who wins the championship.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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Andi76 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:17 pm
matteosc wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:01 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 8:48 pm


Indications were already given in my previous post together with telemtry in the post of another user.

But anyway -we do only know one thing for sure- Ferrari uses higher downforce rear-wings.And the Rear Wing is the biggest contributior to drag. And thats the main reason for the differences between Ferrari and Red Bull. They have two different approaches. But this does not say anything about the "quality" or "efficiency" of their aero. Also it does not say anything about the "real" drag of both cars. And at the end of the day saying one cars aero is qualitatively less efficient than the other, is just speculation. Nothing else. In relation to aero only one thing is for sure - since the late 70's no F1 car with non-efficient aero was able to fight for the championship. So both cars obviously are very efficient aerodynamically. But they have two different approaches and concepts. Everything else is pure speculation. Not more, not less.
Ferrari is running an aerodynamic configuration with more drag than Red Bull. I do not think this can be denied. With very similar power units, having ~10km/h difference in top speed can only be due to different drag levels.
What can be however discussed and debated is whether this is due "only" to wing angles and general different downforce levels or also to other factors, such as sidepodes, floor, etc.

All F1 cars are "efficient", but you cannot say that they all have the same exact efficiency, and most importantly not the same efficiency at all downforce levels. Red Bull is objectively running a lower downforce configuration, which of course implies lower drag. My opinion is that Ferrari is not able to run the same level of downforce with the same efficiency (i.e. the same level of drag). I believe that both Red Bull and Ferrari are running a configuration which somehow maximize the efficiency, but this optimal point is a higher downforce and higher drag for Ferrari.

As a side note: anything anyone says here is by definition just a speculation, since no one here has all the data.
We had some telemetry here showing that there is little to no difference in race trim without DRS between the RB and Ferrari. So there is no real evidence for "more efficiency" of Red Bulls aero. Indeed this telemetry even suggests that Ferraris aero is qualitatively more efficient, as they have the same or only slightly less topspeed while running a higher downforce rear-wing. But anyway - its your opinion. At the end of the day nobody knows. And its not even important as the most efficient car is the one who wins the championship.
Ferrari have more hp though. You can't ignore how that compensates a bit for some of the drag. Their power advantage basically makes the drag issue look better than it is. If Ferrari had an inferior PU, they'd look much worse I think.

PhillipM
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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A small HP difference barely affects top end speed at this level, given drag power is exponential.

matteosc
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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Andi76 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:17 pm
matteosc wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:01 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 8:48 pm


Indications were already given in my previous post together with telemtry in the post of another user.

But anyway -we do only know one thing for sure- Ferrari uses higher downforce rear-wings.And the Rear Wing is the biggest contributior to drag. And thats the main reason for the differences between Ferrari and Red Bull. They have two different approaches. But this does not say anything about the "quality" or "efficiency" of their aero. Also it does not say anything about the "real" drag of both cars. And at the end of the day saying one cars aero is qualitatively less efficient than the other, is just speculation. Nothing else. In relation to aero only one thing is for sure - since the late 70's no F1 car with non-efficient aero was able to fight for the championship. So both cars obviously are very efficient aerodynamically. But they have two different approaches and concepts. Everything else is pure speculation. Not more, not less.
Ferrari is running an aerodynamic configuration with more drag than Red Bull. I do not think this can be denied. With very similar power units, having ~10km/h difference in top speed can only be due to different drag levels.
What can be however discussed and debated is whether this is due "only" to wing angles and general different downforce levels or also to other factors, such as sidepodes, floor, etc.

All F1 cars are "efficient", but you cannot say that they all have the same exact efficiency, and most importantly not the same efficiency at all downforce levels. Red Bull is objectively running a lower downforce configuration, which of course implies lower drag. My opinion is that Ferrari is not able to run the same level of downforce with the same efficiency (i.e. the same level of drag). I believe that both Red Bull and Ferrari are running a configuration which somehow maximize the efficiency, but this optimal point is a higher downforce and higher drag for Ferrari.

As a side note: anything anyone says here is by definition just a speculation, since no one here has all the data.
We had some telemetry here showing that there is little to no difference in race trim without DRS between the RB and Ferrari. So there is no real evidence for "more efficiency" of Red Bulls aero. Indeed this telemetry even suggests that Ferraris aero is qualitatively more efficient, as they have the same or only slightly less topspeed while running a higher downforce rear-wing. But anyway - its your opinion. At the end of the day nobody knows. And its not even important as the most efficient car is the one who wins the championship.
I found it weird that there is a ~10km/h top speed difference with both cars on open DRS. Not sure about how this is explained in telemetry. Red Bull and Ferrari are having very close lap times (especially in race): if Ferrari is faster in corners (which it is) without being slower in straights, I do not understand how they can have such close lap times.

Not always the most efficient car wins (even though having a very efficient car is extremely important): Red Bull won a lot of championships with a lot of downforce and a lot of drag, not being necessarily more efficient than Ferrari. There are other factors involved, for example the ability of having an efficient car with the downforce level required in all different circuits, or the ability of exploiting effectively the tires, just to mention few.

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hollus
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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hollus wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 9:11 pm
Thunder wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:35 am
https://i.imgur.com/jH6hF66.png

This is the official Ferrari F1-75 car thread. The thread has been created to facilitate discussion specifically about the F1-75 car.

Please, ONLY discuss technical items of this car. Refrain from speculation.

General discussion about the team, its drivers and performance can be posted in the team thread.

Livery discussion also belongs in the 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team thread.
A whole bunch of posts have been moved to the team thread. No, who am I kidding, they moved by themselves.
Seriously, don't care if Red Bull is faster than Ferrari. Or if the red car was faster than the blue car in track XY. I mean, don't care about it in this thread. Help keep car threads focused, thanks.
There are race threads, team threads, car comparison threads, theme specific threads and any user can open threads. It might appear cozy to discuss the race prospects of the Ferrari car here if you are a Ferrari fan, but think of all the others that are not Ferrari fans... but still want to talk about the car. Let's keep the signal to noise high, at least in the car threads.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

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hollus
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Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Ferrari F1-75

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Apparently this thread stayed locked several days. Either technical glitch or the phenomenon commonly called "fat fingers" from yours truly.

In either case,
a) apologies
b) Tell us faster next time!
c) Thread open, thanks Stu.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

Jakxy
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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Rumors :

- New Rear Wing ( More Downforce )
- New Floor ( Hopefully gonna reduce Porpoising )
- New Sidepods ( narrower body , less drag )
- New Brake Ducts ( may be slight changes on suspensions )
- Overall Weight Reduction

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organic
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Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:24 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Ferrari F1-75

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Jakxy wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 9:35 pm
Rumors :

- New Rear Wing ( More Downforce )
- New Floor ( Hopefully gonna reduce Porpoising )
- New Sidepods ( narrower body , less drag )
- New Brake Ducts ( may be slight changes on suspensions )
- Overall Weight Reduction
What's the source of the rumours?

wowgr8
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Re: Ferrari F1-75

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organic wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 10:14 pm
Jakxy wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 9:35 pm
Rumors :

- New Rear Wing ( More Downforce )
- New Floor ( Hopefully gonna reduce Porpoising )
- New Sidepods ( narrower body , less drag )
- New Brake Ducts ( may be slight changes on suspensions )
- Overall Weight Reduction
What's the source of the rumours?
Nugnes, who is totally unreliable

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organic
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Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:24 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Ferrari F1-75

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wowgr8 wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 10:21 pm
organic wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 10:14 pm
Jakxy wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 9:35 pm
Rumors :

- New Rear Wing ( More Downforce )
- New Floor ( Hopefully gonna reduce Porpoising )
- New Sidepods ( narrower body , less drag )
- New Brake Ducts ( may be slight changes on suspensions )
- Overall Weight Reduction
What's the source of the rumours?
Nugnes, who is totally unreliable
Ah. I would prefer people stop posting Nunges here