Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
PlatinumZealot
507
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

GhostF1 wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 5:55 am

Cherry picking?

Ok, the averages I posted were from Miami but they were mentioned because that was the most recent race. Far from cherry picking. I'm not skewing anything either.

But I'm a bit perplexed.. there's a very obvious pattern emerging here. They, as a manufacturer, are globally down and have been for all 5 rounds which have also been different styles of tracks. This isn't a shot, it's just commentary on something that's pretty obvious. Most respected media outlets have put articles out about it, Toto initially mentioned in Bahrain he "wasn't sure how much they were losing on the engine side", he's now dropped back to a company morale line of "there will be no internal finger pointing, and we are 8 time world champs.. etc etc" (translation, both engine and chassis are lacking a bit, so we'll keep it an internal discussion, not a media stood witch hunt), Lando Norris has been critical of the engine this year saying it isn't helping at the moment, but he thinks it's reliable so that's good.
Let's talk FIA Qualifying speed traps.. (as these are generally set with no tow, no traffic, all DRS enabled). Below is the average speed of every driver combined into a manufacturer representation for every round. It doesn't include weird outliers who are 40kph down or those who didn't qualify. It also includes a Mercedes without McLaren option as a few people are blaming McLaren for poor averages... in reality, McLaren even with their issues only lowers the average in Australia.

https://imgbb.com/

And while I realise this is only one snapshot.. it's fairly a damning one when the lack of top speed and time to V-Max can't be traded for outright laptime (see Ferrari). And this also takes onboard Williams who are punching above their weight a lot at several tracks with their low downforce configurations and honestly, the situation sort of looks to be improving in the later races, but I think the low DF Williams and Merc's lower drag upgrades helped at Miami. Again this is merely a conversation point. I'm only responding to some pretty loaded comments I got for literally harmlessly mentioning "they seem a little down on power at the moment"
I am not convinced yet.

We know what power deficits look like there are tell tale signs. Cars with early versions of the Honda engine were easily passed, we are not seeing Mercedes easily passed. Renault V8 powered cars were bouncing against the rev-limiter on the straights (an attempt to use shorter gearing to "off-set" acceleration deficits). Cars lacking power were always set up with slimmer rear wings than their rivals. RedBull drivers cried for lack of power pretty much ever since, Mercedes drivers cried for lack of power in 2019 when they were getting annihilated on the straights by Ferrari.

The aforementioned signals are what I pay attention to in order to get an idea if there is a power deficit. I try not to use V-max or clean-air Velocity traces because we just don't know what sort of compromises were made in set-up and these turbo hybrid engines make it more difficult to use the revs to gauge anything. The ground effect aerodynamics also throws in another complication into the matter.


It's not about pride or anything for me to be in denial. I just don't see any of the usual signals that there is a lack of power. Let's just wait to see some more tracks before we jump to conclusions.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

User avatar
_cerber1
219
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:50 pm
Location: From Russia with love

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

In addition to aerodynamic upgrades, the second PU on the W13 is expected to debut in Barcelona, which, apparently, will guarantee a leap forward in performance.

They understand that the first unit was not used to its maximum potential. Mercedes did not want to comment on whether the second unit is a new specification with interventions granted by the FIA to solve reliability problems.


From @fiagirly

SSScoffee
SSScoffee
7
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:32 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

How is it be possible to have aerodynamic upgrades if the architecture of the PU is homologated? Maybe AM may have Thought about this in their B car...

User avatar
organic
104
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:24 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

SSScoffee wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 5:13 pm
How is it be possible to have aerodynamic upgrades if the architecture of the PU is homologated? Maybe AM may have Thought about this in their B car...
By "aerodynamic ugrades" they're referring to things like sidepods, wings, bib etc that Mercedes will bring to the W13 in Barcelona, not anything to do with the effect of the engine on aerodynamics

User avatar
Big Tea
91
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

GhostF1 wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 5:55 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 4:26 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:42 am


Qualifying Team Average Speed Trap (FIA):

RBR: 334.5kmh
MER: 326.0kmh
FEZ: 324.8kmh

Mix that with what looks to be a clear lack of downforce comparatively to RBR and Ferrari, the fact McLaren are the slowest on the grid here with Aston also bottom half and this trend looks very much the same since the start of the season... You start to run out of good arguments against the fact they must be a little down on power at the moment.
That's just cherry picking.
The car passed an alpine and an alpha tauri, no complaints from the drivers about power.

The ground effect cars make finding the engine pecking order even more difficult so best to make a hypothesis of which track you think would give you a good reading and why.
Cherry picking?

Ok, the averages I posted were from Miami but they were mentioned because that was the most recent race. Far from cherry picking. I'm not skewing anything either.

But I'm a bit perplexed.. there's a very obvious pattern emerging here. They, as a manufacturer, are globally down and have been for all 5 rounds which have also been different styles of tracks. This isn't a shot, it's just commentary on something that's pretty obvious. Most respected media outlets have put articles out about it, Toto initially mentioned in Bahrain he "wasn't sure how much they were losing on the engine side", he's now dropped back to a company morale line of "there will be no internal finger pointing, and we are 8 time world champs.. etc etc" (translation, both engine and chassis are lacking a bit, so we'll keep it an internal discussion, not a media stood witch hunt), Lando Norris has been critical of the engine this year saying it isn't helping at the moment, but he thinks it's reliable so that's good.
Let's talk FIA Qualifying speed traps.. (as these are generally set with no tow, no traffic, all DRS enabled). Below is the average speed of every driver combined into a manufacturer representation for every round. It doesn't include weird outliers who are 40kph down or those who didn't qualify. It also includes a Mercedes without McLaren option as a few people are blaming McLaren for poor averages... in reality, McLaren even with their issues only lowers the average in Australia.

https://imgbb.com/

And while I realise this is only one snapshot.. it's fairly a damning one when the lack of top speed and time to V-Max can't be traded for outright laptime (see Ferrari). And this also takes onboard Williams who are punching above their weight a lot at several tracks with their low downforce configurations and honestly, the situation sort of looks to be improving in the later races, but I think the low DF Williams and Merc's lower drag upgrades helped at Miami. Again this is merely a conversation point. I'm only responding to some pretty loaded comments I got for literally harmlessly mentioning "they seem a little down on power at the moment"
If the car is slower out of the previous corner, will that not reflect in the top speed figure. That is assuming they are not hitting the limiter.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

_cerber1 wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 2:36 pm
In addition to aerodynamic upgrades, the second PU on the W13 is expected to debut in Barcelona, which, apparently, will guarantee a leap forward in performance.

They understand that the first unit was not used to its maximum potential. Mercedes did not want to comment on whether the second unit is a new specification with interventions granted by the FIA to solve reliability problems.


From @fiagirly
I get reliability upgrades, but assuming that engine one will no longer be used for anything other than FP1/2, two of the ‘new’ engines will need to last for 9 races a-piece for each driver. Based on history, that is a huge ask if they want to avoid grid penalties.
We know that they have allegedly written their season off, but with so many more races to come it is still not over if they actually sort the aero/suspension issue (and little point in wasting a better engine until it can be operated to its best potential), we frequently see/hear the Mercedes cars having to ‘soft-pedal’ once the porpoising gets to a certain point.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

User avatar
chrisc90
8
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Stu wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 11:12 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 2:36 pm
In addition to aerodynamic upgrades, the second PU on the W13 is expected to debut in Barcelona, which, apparently, will guarantee a leap forward in performance.

They understand that the first unit was not used to its maximum potential. Mercedes did not want to comment on whether the second unit is a new specification with interventions granted by the FIA to solve reliability problems.


From @fiagirly
I get reliability upgrades, but assuming that engine one will no longer be used for anything other than FP1/2, two of the ‘new’ engines will need to last for 9 races a-piece for each driver. Based on history, that is a huge ask if they want to avoid grid penalties.
We know that they have allegedly written their season off, but with so many more races to come it is still not over if they actually sort the aero/suspension issue (and little point in wasting a better engine until it can be operated to its best potential), we frequently see/hear the Mercedes cars having to ‘soft-pedal’ once the porpoising gets to a certain point.
Be strange if they can get a huge leap of performance out the engine through 'reliability upgrades'.

What did they do with the 'rocket engines' they ran from Brazil onwards last year? Was it just down to mapping pushing them harder or was there hardware changes aswell. (appreciate it might have been last season, but I dont know what they 'did' with the engines from last year.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

The only information released/leaked was that the ‘rocket engine’ had reworked gaskets, and that it was 600g heavier than the previous spec.
600g sounds like a lot of extra gasket material, so other ancillary changes must also have been made. Maybe sensors, connectors, harness would be my best guess (and could feasibly be done for the purposes of reliability); but a guess is all that it is.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

Spoutnik
Spoutnik
1
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:02 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 1:10 pm
Stu wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 11:12 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 2:36 pm
In addition to aerodynamic upgrades, the second PU on the W13 is expected to debut in Barcelona, which, apparently, will guarantee a leap forward in performance.

They understand that the first unit was not used to its maximum potential. Mercedes did not want to comment on whether the second unit is a new specification with interventions granted by the FIA to solve reliability problems.


From @fiagirly
I get reliability upgrades, but assuming that engine one will no longer be used for anything other than FP1/2, two of the ‘new’ engines will need to last for 9 races a-piece for each driver. Based on history, that is a huge ask if they want to avoid grid penalties.
We know that they have allegedly written their season off, but with so many more races to come it is still not over if they actually sort the aero/suspension issue (and little point in wasting a better engine until it can be operated to its best potential), we frequently see/hear the Mercedes cars having to ‘soft-pedal’ once the porpoising gets to a certain point.
Be strange if they can get a huge leap of performance out the engine through 'reliability upgrades'.

What did they do with the 'rocket engines' they ran from Brazil onwards last year? Was it just down to mapping pushing them harder or was there hardware changes aswell.(appreciate it might have been last season, but I dont know what they 'did' with the engines from last year.
They increased the compression ratio from what I read at that time.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
35
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

The so called 2021 mercedes ‘’Rocket-engine’’. That was a time that mercedes still had a chemical advantage (E5 fuel). That engine was the 5th engine introduced in Brazil, and was intended to run for only 3 race distances. At that time normally a new engine introduced was calculated to have an average of 5kw advantage. But RBR was claiming the mercedes engine had a calculated 15kw advantage. These calculations were claimed by RBR based on what they claimed number 44 pass on number 33 at a speed of 30km/h higher than number 33 was traveling at.
2022 season, 3 engines allowed. Number 1 engine used will normally always do the most mileage. (FP1, FP2, FP3. Qualifying and race distance. If number one is relegated to FP1, FP2 use, number 2 engine will do much less mileage in normal race distances it is used for, and same goes for number 3 engine provided number 2 is used for FP1 and FP2. 18 race distances for engine 2 and 3 means an average of 4050 km on each of them (9 race distances each).

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
35
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Stu wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 1:17 pm
The only information released/leaked was that the ‘rocket engine’ had reworked gaskets, and that it was 600g heavier than the previous spec.
600g sounds like a lot of extra gasket material, so other ancillary changes must also have been made. Maybe sensors, connectors, harness would be my best guess (and could feasibly be done for the purposes of reliability); but a guess is all that it is.
Where is/are 'Gakets' used on a formula one engine?.

Mansell89
Mansell89
9
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Can one explain a reliability upgrade leading to increased performance in the sense that some parts or engine failure risks will lead to lower/safer engine maps etc to counteract the unreliability?

So whilst the engines are fundamentally homologised, providing a team can demonstrate to the FIA how their change is fundamentally there to improve reliability, they have the room to push the performance?

Forgive my non-technical views- just a keen fan trying to understand 👍🏻

There was some chatter in and around the McLaren board earlier this season about safer engine modes owing to E10 fuels and risks associated with turning up the engine.

Just trying to further understand/rule out theories

'Tis me, just me.
'Tis me, just me.
1
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:28 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mansell89 wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 10:28 pm
Can one explain a reliability upgrade leading to increased performance in the sense that some parts or engine failure risks will lead to lower/safer engine maps etc to counteract the unreliability?

So whilst the engines are fundamentally homologised, providing a team can demonstrate to the FIA how their change is fundamentally there to improve reliability, they have the room to push the performance?

Forgive my non-technical views- just a keen fan trying to understand 👍🏻

There was some chatter in and around the McLaren board earlier this season about safer engine modes owing to E10 fuels and risks associated with turning up the engine.

Just trying to further understand/rule out theories
I know NOTHING about engines, but usually, if your engine is more reliable you can run it harder for longer. As an example I believe The Sendy Club car at Pikes Peak has had its engine slightly detuned so they can run it a higher power setting throughout the hill climb or something like that.

User avatar
Big Tea
91
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I think of the land rover unreliable junk engine that became the dogs bollocks when bought by a Chinese company and the only difference was the head gasket material? Oak trees come from acorns.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
507
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 1:10 pm
Stu wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 11:12 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 2:36 pm
In addition to aerodynamic upgrades, the second PU on the W13 is expected to debut in Barcelona, which, apparently, will guarantee a leap forward in performance.

They understand that the first unit was not used to its maximum potential. Mercedes did not want to comment on whether the second unit is a new specification with interventions granted by the FIA to solve reliability problems.


From @fiagirly
I get reliability upgrades, but assuming that engine one will no longer be used for anything other than FP1/2, two of the ‘new’ engines will need to last for 9 races a-piece for each driver. Based on history, that is a huge ask if they want to avoid grid penalties.
We know that they have allegedly written their season off, but with so many more races to come it is still not over if they actually sort the aero/suspension issue (and little point in wasting a better engine until it can be operated to its best potential), we frequently see/hear the Mercedes cars having to ‘soft-pedal’ once the porpoising gets to a certain point.
Be strange if they can get a huge leap of performance out the engine through 'reliability upgrades'.

What did they do with the 'rocket engines' they ran from Brazil onwards last year? Was it just down to mapping pushing them harder or was there hardware changes aswell. (appreciate it might have been last season, but I dont know what they 'did' with the engines from last year.
There weas no rocket engine. Let it rest.

I WISH there was one. In Jeddah and Abu Dhabi the rocket engine would have brought the WDC easily.

Max would have been easily passed in Jeddah, and Checo would have been made short work of in Abu Dhabi. Max would not overtake.
And williams would have been given the rockets to disrupt the field spread.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||