2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.

Will 4WD be used in 2010?

Poll ended at 30 May 2009, 22:11

No
11
25%
It'll be tried and quickly removed/banned
1
2%
Yes, it will make the car slower
1
2%
Yes, but it won't make much difference
1
2%
Yes, it will be slightly faster
4
9%
Yes, it'll be much faster but only in the wet
5
11%
Yes, and it will dominate in the wet and dry
6
14%
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
15
34%
 
Total votes: 44

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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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xpensive wrote:Sometimes WB, I wonder if you have a natural gift for annoying people, or if you have to make an effort?

I'm very sorry for saying this, but at times your almost arrogant and evidence-free preaching-style does that.
I do not even know what you are talking about. Is it your job to rate people's communication skills here?

I just happen to have some experience with servo drive systems and particularly those with high specific power. They have been used in the machine tool and robotics industry for many years. The physics are valid and can be transfered to other applications. I have also given you the figure that is the underlying reason for the high performance of liquide cooled systems. It is the heat transfer. So do not say that it is all opinion and evidence free.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Paul
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Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:33

Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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What do you think of some sort of a plug-in AWD? If a wet weekend is expected, a team builds an overweight car, that would still, I think, coast to victory if the driver is any good.

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safeaschuck
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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If they are seriously opening up the possibility of allowing full, engine powered Four wheel drive then they would probably have to build the car around it, not good at all to have all the unused space for hardware in 2WD confuguration.

I suppose they could have 2 significantly diffrent chassis, 4WD for wet, 2WD for dry, I can't see that lasting past the proposal stage though as surely Max would stamp it out on cost basis, and if it's THAT wet it red flag time anyway eh?

I'd be interested to see how far this could go though, with the changes to fuel capacity, could we see a far flatter eight cylinder engine and large fuel tank on the floor of the chassis with a propshaft running in either direction and the driver sitting on top of it? I know the Crank centre line is fixed but that needn't change and I believe the C of G of the engine is also specified, bit is there a workaround for that?

donskar
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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DaveKillens, good post, but I must enter some opposing comments:
Max Mosley is a freaking genius. Despite his long list of personal shortcomings, the man sure knows how to get people to follow his personal agenda. Seriously, the man stands alone against some of the most intelligent, sophisticated, motivated people in the world (the teams) and yet manages to bully his way through them almost every time. I'd be the first to jump in line to slag Max, but I also have to admit he's one smart dude.


What you say of Max is true of some of the most evil dictators in world history. They DO deserve a sort of resepct, I guess . . .
In the last couple of years, Max has been preaching about two main goals. To lower costs in Formula One, and to prove to the world that Formula One is become more of a responsible citizen. That is through adoption of greener fuels, and improved fuel mileage. The teams have their agendas, and that is to win, to be successful. To achieve those goals, they are willing to spend whatever it takes, and to use whatever fuels and strategies to improve performance. I remember when Formula One fuel was a toxic concoction of exotic chemicals. So the teams won't willingly go down the road Max wants them to. So instead he creates conditions where they have no choice but to go his way. But he doesn't just try to push one rule to change everything all at once. Instead he is creating a number of rules, over a period of time, that taken together, force the teams towards his agenda.
I just can't buy into "Big Brother Max knows what is best. Resistance is futile. Do as Max demands and all will be well." What he is doing is attempting to manipulate what you called "some of the most intelligent, sophisticated, motivated people in the world." Yet Max knows better? Max is not driven by human weaknesses and biases? I find that hard to accept.

Max is interested primarily in the future of Formula One. As far as the future of the teams, that is secondary. And history has proven that teams come and go in Formula One. If one leaves, they will be missed for just a short while, and eventually the fans forget. Even Ferrari. Back in the 50's and 60's endurance racing, especially LeMans, was the big motor sport. And Ferrari was a big dog in that discipline. But Ferrari left that kind of racing, and today, I don't see or hear any fans complaining about this. Time is Max's friend.
Here is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I do NOT believe that Max's main interest is the future of Formula 1. His main interest is in increasing his power, playing his Machiavellian games, lying, cheating, manipulating. It is, as you called it, his personal agenda that is foremost to Max. Personal agenda, not F1. Fortunately, Time is NOT Max's friend. F1 will (I hope) outlive him.

So although we see what appears to be a mess of confusing and weird rules, they are designed to drive Formula One into the vision of what Max wants. And expect more to come, this isn't the end, but sadly, only the opening phases of a long campaign. Max wants a world engine by 2013, that's just an indication of how far into the future he has this planned.
I was very glad to see that "sadly." Max's vision, like his rules, is weird and confusing. But take heart, we can hope that Max will not complete his long campaign. Let's hope his ultimate DNF comes soon. (Naturally, I mean voted out, not dead [-X )
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

Giblet
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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I asked before but nobody answered me...

Will 4 wheel steering be allowed?
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

xpensive
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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I am a little tempted to type something about "the figure that is the underlying reason for the high performance of liquide cooled systems", which was so kindly revealed to us mortals in a posting above, but something tells me not to.
Wonder what that could be? 8)
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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machin
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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Giblet wrote:I asked before but nobody answered me...

Will 4 wheel steering be allowed?

The recent news article doesn't suggest it will be.


I agree with some of the comments above; I doubt any team will have pure mechanical 4WD, but a KERS related 4WD would appear to be the reason for the rule change... thinking about it; mounting additional MGU's at the front might sort out the tire width issue without changing the fronts for narrows....
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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4WS might not help those cars.. I mostly see 4WS on huge cars that need help going around tight slow turns.
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safeaschuck
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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I believe the main aim of steering the rear wheels is to raise the grip breakaway point, the wheels are travelling a little more forwards and a little less sideways than when fixed putting less lateral load on them and reducing the chances of oversteer, I'm sure there are enough ways of changing the set-up of the car to acheive this as it is without further complicating matters! It's not like I'd be upset if they introduced it or anything, It's something else to work with, but why?

It's an interesting sensation in a road car, my old Citroen ZX had passive RWS. It was slightly unnerving, I don't know if the bushes were a bit shot but it would load up during heavy cornering and when it reached critical mass you would feel the back end give a little lurch into a different cornering stance, once you got used to it it gripped very well. This may have been a fix for the oversteering tendencies of the car, the back end was quite light I believe, they certainly used some plastic panels back there. Mind you all the french cars of that era I owned loved to oversteer on lift off. Perhaps not necessary to fix an F1 car in this manner though?

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safeaschuck
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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Oh and if they are going to push on with the thinner front tyres I'm sure they will have enough issues with understeer and tyre life without giving the front tyres further work to do?

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Ayrton Senna
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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go home mosley !

he is very dotard ! it is re-fuelling ban and 4WD absoultly meanin' bullshit [-X [-X

EAKMotorsports
EAKMotorsports
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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4wd means weight/mass and more fuel consumption. Maybe 1 or 2 teams will test maybe find some gains in performance.
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Jersey Tom
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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Would be tough to pull off without a big packaging knock.. but doable.

Be a hell of an advantage at the start of the race.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Scania
Scania
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Joined: 26 Nov 2008, 16:26

Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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I think no team will transfer power to front real by propeller shaft....

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jon-mullen
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Re: 2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

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safeaschuck wrote:Image

Despite this picture I am wondering now whether or not the Kers units are, strictly speaking water-cooled as of today. I might theorise that Ferrari's is, and is very similar to the one displayed here, hence it's additional weight whereas Mclarens may not be. Half a second is not a very long time in which to get hot, however ambient temperatures are going to be high, the block Is water-cooled and the MGU will be bolted directly to the block, I would imagine that without the effect of water cooling on the block the MGU would get rather warm! It would be relatively simple, if the engines were open to design changes, to tap the cooling system and run water into the MGU housing without needing to revert to hoses, when the charging requirements increase.

As for whether a front axle kers/diff system would need active fluid cooling with the lower ambient temperatures would, I suppose depend on the amount of charge it was expected/allowed to collect and it is probably a bit early to speculate, especially for someone with my limited knowledge. At least, as mentioned, from the B.A.R. days Brawn will have data on things like heat from the brakes soaking up the drive shafts and the other problems I cannot foresee. I shan't waste further time re-opening the debate as to whether this sort of background makes them strictly a new team :lol: Anyway despite not being the most serious of observations the water pipes under the driver comment really was not very well thought out. My deepest apologies.
Matchett this morning indicated that the McLaren KERS is NOT water-cooled. Not sure where's he gets his info, but he said it saves them a few kgs.
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