Heatsinks maybe?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Conceptual
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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I'm waiting to see a peltier combo. One stack to generate electricity from the exhaust manifold used to power another set to cool the water.

I'm sure that there would be diminishing returns, but since the KERS systems are limited, the excess electricity that is generated from there could ALSO be used to power the water cooling peltiers.

I'm sure that it would be illegal however, since only 3 teams would adopt it, and would force a complete redesign of the other 7... :roll: :wtf: :wtf: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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BMW was doing some steam power thingy in the past.

I think it was this. It is like a heat recovery from the exhaust.

BMW turbosteamer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosteamer

http://www.motortrend.com/features/edit ... index.html
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xpensive
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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Sometimes I curse the day I entered University, perhaps life would be easier if you just label yourself someting catchy and never bother with any realistic numbers, simply throw around ideas and expressions which you pick up as you go? :idea:
Last edited by xpensive on 28 Apr 2009, 06:26, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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For sminkle:
That turbosteamer was new to me, but so exciting, do you happen to have more on the subject WB?
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callmekart
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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Just an insight.. Currently Personal Computers tuned for gaming have replaced the heatsinks for CPU with radiators!! And Memory Modules are also now having the option of having a radiator!! High cooling requirements are really necessary for overclocking the components, else these could cook :o

One such company that provides these cooling enhancements is OCZ(http://www.ocztechnology.com/).

riff_raff
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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xpensive,

You said: "To the best of my experience, you are perhaps missing the point here, thermal conductivity of the material itself is very often not the most critical parameter, when getting enough surface-area is."

I would somewhat disagree. The reason the radiator material thermal conductivity is important is because a typical radiator is not simply a liquid-to-air heat exchanger, as it is commonly referred to. It is more correctly a liquid-to-metal-to-air heat exchanger. The rate at which heat is transferred from the liquid to the passing airflow is partially a function of the thermal conductivity of the metal tubes and fins the core is constructed of.

For any radiator installation besides a drag sensitive F1 car, an aluminum core would seem to give the best compromise of weight, cost, efficiency and durability. But for an F1 car, where cost and durability are not so much of an issue, I still think a carefully designed copper core might win out due to its lower drag, despite the fact that it would be slightly heavier.

Unfortunately, it would seem to be a very complex trade study to determine which core material would be better overall. One would have to have an intimate knowledge of heat exchanger design and how it affects a modern F1 chassis aero configuration. And there's not too many people around with that level of expertise.

This is probably the best reference on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Compact-Heat-Exch ... 1575240602

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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Yo Terry,
Well, I cannot find any form of disagreement whatsoever here, not in any direction.

One parameter missing in the discussion however, might be the wall-thickness of the tubing/channels, when energy tranfer is proportional to the inverse of that, which is obvious by the unit, J/m*K. In other words, a very thin-walled channel can compensate for a poor lambda.

But wall-thickness is also decided by internal pressure and yield-strength of material. A rather classic case of engineering optimization, where it seems most people agree that an Aluminium-alloy to be the way to go.
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Conceptual
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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xpensive wrote:Sometimes I curse the day I entered University, perhaps life would be easier if you just label yourself someting catchy and never bother with any realistic numbers, simply throw around ideas and expressions which you pick up as you go? :idea:
There are those that think, and those that do what others think.

It is all about the nature of the person... :wink:

And if that is the best argument you have against said ideas, I would think it was a waste of money as well!
Last edited by Conceptual on 30 Apr 2009, 00:59, edited 1 time in total.

Conceptual
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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What about simply putting a vortex tube inline with the inlet to the radiator. That would sepatate the hot from the cold (50%H:50%C to 20%H:80%C), and only have the hot outlet goto the radiator, but have the cold outlet return to the engine immediately.

If you are only sending 20% of the total flow to the radiator, they could be smaller for sure, but the unknown is how much hotter this 20% would be than the normal flow. So having a 25% sized radiator made from Copper might be the solution to that?

Sorry if my "study at home" ideas infringe on anyones engineering degree. I don't mean to make anyone feel like all of that investment puts them behind. :roll:

xpensive
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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Separating what, hot molecules from cold, who the hell said it was something to separate in the first place?

I take the curse above back, thank God I got that degree. Besides, in a socialistic utopia such as ours, taxpayers picked up the bill for that investment anyway.
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Patriiick
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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Conceptual wrote:I'm waiting to see a peltier combo. One stack to generate electricity from the exhaust manifold used to power another set to cool the water.

I'm sure that there would be diminishing returns, but since the KERS systems are limited, the excess electricity that is generated from there could ALSO be used to power the water cooling peltiers.

I'm sure that it would be illegal however, since only 3 teams would adopt it, and would force a complete redesign of the other 7... :roll: :wtf: :wtf: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Peltier uses a LOT of power.., and it s draw is proportional to the surface and the temp you need.
You also need it to be fully and permanently powered for it to be efficient..
Furthermore, it also generates quite a bit of condensation so it s really tough to implement in an f1 car..

riff_raff
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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Conceptual,

Induced turbulence of both the liquid and air flows is commonly employed in radiators. It is very effective at increasing the heat transfer rate. A laminar flow would only have effective heat exchange at the thin boundary layer along the duct wall. Creating turbulence in the flow stream constantly mixes the boundary and core flows, thus establishing a homogeneous fluid temperature as opposed to a stratified fluid temperature.

The tubes usually have joggled sheet metal inserts called "turbulators" installed into them before brazing.

Image

The fins are stamped with little tiny louvers (like you see in hot rod hoods) that divert some of the passing airflow back-and-forth through the fin.

Image

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

xpensive
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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Most educative Terry, thanks. Now, for the posibility of recovering those 300 kW of cooling power I toyed around with upstreams on this thread, does anyone have a serious idea on how to make propulsion use of that?

Collecting heated up cooling-air through a compressor and feeding a Stirling engine perhaps?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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That 300kW is a very low quality of energy.
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nickfos
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Re: Heatsinks maybe?

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What about simply putting a vortex tube inline with the inlet to the radiator. That would sepatate the hot from the cold (50%H:50%C to 20%H:80%C), and only have the hot outlet goto the radiator, but have the cold outlet return to the engine immediately.

If you are only sending 20% of the total flow to the radiator, they could be smaller for sure, but the unknown is how much hotter this 20% would be than the normal flow. So having a 25% sized radiator made from Copper might be the solution to that?

Sorry if my "study at home" ideas infringe on anyones engineering degree. I don't mean to make anyone feel like all of that investment puts them behind.

It is really cool. I agree with you. http://www.forging-company.com
I like F1, I am from a forging company that provide forging parts for F1 cars. http://www.forging-company.com