2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[wowgr8]

F1 doesn't work like that. There's absolutely no guarantee they get back up front. Red Bull outclassed them in strategy last year and finally built the superior car to match that strategy this year.

I'm a lot more fearful of Mercedes than you are, they are an incredible team and they won't get it wrong two years in a row IMO, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Gillian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would using more power unit components chew into the (Ferrari's) Cost Cap for the season?

Obviously the supply other teams as well which wouldn't be paying you'd imagine for those fixes... but surely that would hamper Ferrari in multiple ways financially to right the issues of the Power Unit...?

No, engines are a flat $15 mil per season, they don't fit in the cost cap. However pretty obviously they suck time that could be spent on other things given the imminent September deadline.

I was under the impression that the $15m per season is the cap that constructors can charge a customer for their engine supply. I do not believe that if Ferrari (for example) themselves need to spend more than $15m to construct more engines to run in the season that any excess becomes exempt. The $15m rule is to protect customers being fleeced by the constructors (who would want to reduce their rivals' budget).

It would make zero sense to also apply this $15m rule to constructors who are already incentivized to keep the costs of building more engines down (so as it does not erode further from the budget cap). Making any spending on engines beyond $15m would undermine the budget cap haha

No he is correct, PU is not included in the budget cap so the teams can spend what they want on it.

There are discussions to cap the PU, but not this year.

[organic]

No, engines are a flat $15 mil per season, they don't fit in the cost cap. However pretty obviously they suck time that could be spent on other things given the imminent September deadline.

I was under the impression that the $15m per season is the cap that constructors can charge a customer for their engine supply. I do not believe that if Ferrari (for example) themselves need to spend more than $15m to construct more engines to run in the season that any excess becomes exempt. The $15m rule is to protect customers being fleeced by the constructors (who would want to reduce their rivals' budget).

It would make zero sense to also apply this $15m rule to constructors who are already incentivized to keep the costs of building more engines down (so as it does not erode further from the budget cap). Making any spending on engines beyond $15m would undermine the budget cap haha

No he is correct, PU is not included in the budget cap so the teams can spend what they want on it.

There are discussions to cap the PU, but not this year.

Obviously spending on power unit development like finding reliability fixes isn't capped, however the PU is deemed a performance-related component of the cars by the FIA, therefore the construction & maintenance of PUs themselves is part of the cap. Customers pay a capped $15m out of their budget cap for an engine supply each year under the current rules. I was under the impression there's no such $15m capped fee on the amount constructors pay out of their budget cap for engines (as they're already incentivized to keep this figure low & fundamentally it wouldn't make sense)

[Gillian]

I was under the impression that the $15m per season is the cap that constructors can charge a customer for their engine supply. I do not believe that if Ferrari (for example) themselves need to spend more than $15m to construct more engines to run in the season that any excess becomes exempt. The $15m rule is to protect customers being fleeced by the constructors (who would want to reduce their rivals' budget).

It would make zero sense to also apply this $15m rule to constructors who are already incentivized to keep the costs of building more engines down (so as it does not erode further from the budget cap). Making any spending on engines beyond $15m would undermine the budget cap haha

No he is correct, PU is not included in the budget cap so the teams can spend what they want on it.

There are discussions to cap the PU, but not this year.

Obviously spending on power unit development like finding reliability fixes isn't capped, however the PU is deemed a performance-related component of the cars by the FIA, therefore the construction & maintenance of PUs themselves is part of the cap. Customers pay a capped $15m out of their budget cap for an engine supply each year under the current rules. I was under the impression there's no such $15m capped fee on the amount constructors pay out of their budget cap for engines (as they're already incentivized to keep this figure low & fundamentally it wouldn't make sense)

This is what the financial regulation say about budget cap excludes:

All costs of goods and services within the Power Unit Supply Perimeter for use by the
F1 Team, up to an amount in any Full Year Reporting Period equal to the applicable
maximum price as set out in the Sporting Regulations;

All costs incurred with a Power Unit supplier that are Directly Attributable to the
development, testing and validation of an Alternative Fuel and Oil for use with the
Power Unit in F1 Cars of the F1 Team;

I can't find the "maximum price" in the Sporting Regulations, but maybe that is the 15m?

Anyway, to me it seems the PU development AND maintenance is fully outside the budget cap, apart from maybe the maximum amount that I can't find yet in the regulations.

[AR3-GP]

No he is correct, PU is not included in the budget cap so the teams can spend what they want on it.

There are discussions to cap the PU, but not this year.

Obviously spending on power unit development like finding reliability fixes isn't capped, however the PU is deemed a performance-related component of the cars by the FIA, therefore the construction & maintenance of PUs themselves is part of the cap. Customers pay a capped $15m out of their budget cap for an engine supply each year under the current rules. I was under the impression there's no such $15m capped fee on the amount constructors pay out of their budget cap for engines (as they're already incentivized to keep this figure low & fundamentally it wouldn't make sense)

This is what the financial regulation say about budget cap excludes:

All costs of goods and services within the Power Unit Supply Perimeter for use by the
F1 Team, up to an amount in any Full Year Reporting Period equal to the applicable
maximum price as set out in the Sporting Regulations;

All costs incurred with a Power Unit supplier that are Directly Attributable to the
development, testing and validation of an Alternative Fuel and Oil for use with the
Power Unit in F1 Cars of the F1 Team;

I can't find the "maximum price" in the Sporting Regulations, but maybe that is the 15m?

Anyway, to me it seems the PU development AND maintenance is fully outside the budget cap, apart from maybe the maximum amount that I can't find yet in the regulations.

Page 82 of the sporting regulations

Price:
Fifteen million euros (unless agreed otherwise between the Power Unit Manufacturer and the
New Customer Team).
Notwithstanding the above, the Price shall not be applicable to any customer team who is at
any time in breach of its payment obligations to the Power Unit Manufacturer under any supply
agreement.
The Price will be reviewed by the Power Unit Manufacturers and the FIA in good faith and
amended accordingly should the F1 governing bodies decide any change to the Power Unit
Technical and Sporting Regulations1 that would materially affect the financial conditions
concerning the supply of power units (except if the change is supported by at least 75% of the
Power Unit Manufacturers which, at the date of the consultation, are supplying power units in
the corresponding Championship season and have not officially announced their intention to
stop supplying power units to teams in any subsequent Championship season).

[Gillian]

Thanks I couldn't find it myself yesterday!

[chrisc90]

Did we get the outcome of the investigation into Charles’ PU that failed? Apart from being very broken

[jumpingfish]

https://www.quotidiano.net/blog/turrini ... zis-5.7529
Sounds like a conspiracy theory from Turrini

The flea in my ear had been put there by a friend who has contributed to the history of the last two decades of Formula One.
Constui, having read my interpretation of the Ferrari engine cracks (I summarize my thesis: they are "pulling" too much to hold up to the Honda level on Red Bull), constui, I said, invited me to reflect.
But then, he asked me, how come they crack the power unit as well on Alfa and Haas, which certainly do not "force" to beat the Bibitarians?
Ah, though.
In fact, at the start of the season it was not uncommon to find six Ferrari-powered cars in the Top Ten.
So?
Well.
Well, on May 16, close to the Barcelona Grand Prix, the Fia issued a "clarifying" directive on the biofuel component to be used.
It's all very complicated stuff about ethanol evaporation and blah blah blah.
From that moment, Ferrari power units started to suffer. Customer teams included.
I'll explain it as it appears in the document.

Pre Barcelona:
They would embark 120kg of gasoline and 10% ethanol.
They were evaporating 6kg of ethanol.
They had 112kg in the tank with 5% ethanol and +3% power.
They were using X amount and the FIA didn't know why they weren't doing these checks.

Post Barcelona:
You board 120kg of Gasoline with 10% ethanol. They can't then evaporate in the race.
They consume 100kg.
They have to take 20kg of fuel out of the tank otherwise they are disqualified.
Just to wish everyone a good night, the Fia directive of May 16 bears a signature.
Full name.
Nikolas Tombazis.
What am I telling you for anyway? (Cit.)

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[organic]

How reliable is Leo Turrini when it comes to Ferrari? If it's true, it doesn't seem good at all

[dialtone]

How reliable is Leo Turrini when it comes to Ferrari? If it's true, it doesn't seem good at all

He's less reliable that Nunes. About the F1-75 he said people in Ferrari were convinced it was a dud and there was discontent in the team.

I don't know why people quote him or read him at all.

[dialtone]

I'll even add, the only clarification given by FIA in Barcelona was around fuel temperature, something that actually Ferrari rejected and they stayed the rule of 10C from ambient. No idea what this guy is talking about, no links to directives either. What a bad journalist.

[organic]

How reliable is Leo Turrini when it comes to Ferrari? If it's true, it doesn't seem good at all

He's less reliable that Nunes. About the F1-75 he said people in Ferrari were convinced it was a dud and there was discontent in the team.

I don't know why people quote him or read him at all.

[Schippke]

https://www.quotidiano.net/blog/turrini ... zis-5.7529
Sounds like a conspiracy theory from Turrini

Sounds completely baseless; Not sure what Tombazis would have to gain by doing that, and if it was the case, then surely all the teams would need to follow the same technical directive.

In short, regardless whether there is some truth to it or not, that alone would not be the reason why the Power Unit all of a sudden has become unreliable... It had been discussed and speculated that there were reliability concerns prior to the season beginning which seem to be showing now as the Power Units gain mileage.

Also, Ferrari started the season running the units in a more conservative state before upping the power more and power... once they thought reliability concerns were at ease. Seems it was a bit too good to be true at the time...

[Sevach]

https://www.quotidiano.net/blog/turrini ... zis-5.7529
Sounds like a conspiracy theory from Turrini

Sounds completely baseless; Not sure what Tombazis would have to gain by doing that, and if it was the case, then surely all the teams would need to follow the same technical directive.

In short, regardless whether there is some truth to it or not, that alone would not be the reason why the Power Unit all of a sudden has become unreliable... It had been discussed and speculated that there were reliability concerns prior to the season beginning which seem to be showing now as the Power Units gain mileage.

Also, Ferrari started the season running the units in a more conservative state before upping the power more and power... once they thought reliability concerns were at ease. Seems it was a bit too good to be true at the time...

Theory must be Tombazis is still pissed about... something... from his Ferrari days or exit.

[MV8]