2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”

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siskue2005
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:38 am
You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”
Did I say JA said he needs setups??? I said JA needs transparency.
Just read again what I said it was Horner who commented about setups.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:38 am
You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”
Or It could end up calling out someone who has flat spotted the tyre.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:39 am
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:38 am
You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”
Did I say JA said he needs setups??? I said JA needs transparency.
Just read again what I said it was Horner who commented about setups.
You said: JA had said you need those transparency. With reference to your previous sentence. Maybe it’s the way you’ve written it then because it most certainly reads that way

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djos
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:47 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:39 am
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:38 am
You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”
Did I say JA said he needs setups??? I said JA needs transparency.
Just read again what I said it was Horner who commented about setups.
You said: JA had said you need those transparency. With reference to your previous sentence. Maybe it’s the way you’ve written it then because it most certainly reads that way
I read it that same way you did.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:47 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:39 am
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:38 am
You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”
Did I say JA said he needs setups??? I said JA needs transparency.
Just read again what I said it was Horner who commented about setups.
You said: JA had said you need those transparency. With reference to your previous sentence. Maybe it’s the way you’ve written it then because it most certainly reads that way
Yeah, interpret all they way you want, which ever way to suit ur agenda.. its really getting boring.

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henry
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:43 am
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:38 am
You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”
Or It could end up calling out someone who has flat spotted the tyre.
If the car has unacceptable* vibrations then it matters not what the source is. If it’s a flat spotted tyre then it will need to be replaced. The FIA may need to write this into the regs, along with thrown wheel balance weights, and whatever other issue there may be that puts the car outside the limits.

* outside the metrics set by the FIA.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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JonoNic
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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henry wrote:
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:43 am
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:38 am
You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”
Or It could end up calling out someone who has flat spotted the tyre.
If the car has unacceptable* vibrations then it matters not what the source is. If it’s a flat spotted tyre then it will need to be replaced. The FIA may need to write this into the regs, along with thrown wheel balance weights, and whatever other issue there may be that puts the car outside the limits.

* outside the metrics set by the FIA.
What about something as trivial as running over rumble strips causing the limit to be reached? Would this measurement be based on a peak during a particular lap or the duration of that lap?
Always find the gap then use it.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:47 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:39 am
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:38 am
You said quote: “ I was surprised how against this TD is redbull and Co. It looks like once the rules comes everyone's set up, suspension settings and engine modes would be made public...hence Horner is against it... JA had said u need those transparency otherwise they are also against the rule... looks like this TD will bring out the redbulls secrets..”

All that JA said was that they really have to have transparency on what is being measured/where it’s being measured and that the measurement is available at all times with live data on all the teams. He didn’t mention anything about setup / suspension “settings” (whatever that means) and engine modes.

Fwiw I agree with JA. Measuring of vertical G has got a number of pitfalls/traps that need to be overcome if they want this to be the “solution”
Did I say JA said he needs setups??? I said JA needs transparency.
Just read again what I said it was Horner who commented about setups.
You said: JA had said you need those transparency. With reference to your previous sentence. Maybe it’s the way you’ve written it then because it most certainly reads that way
I read that the same way as ourself. Irrespective of setup, engine mode, the key to pandora's box, The measured oscillations would be the measured same across each car, however the data fed back would differ in terms of porpoising/bouncing/ risk to driver. I think that is what JA is saying when the spoke that in the interview. The teams will need to see the data from that sensor in order to see whats going on in regards to the rules of the new TD. Otherwise your on the FIA to police the issue and hope its done fairly. Thats why JA needs to data so they can watch what other cars are doing and report them to the stewards, or find some other way they can gain a possible advantage from other teams being outside the new limits set by the FIA. Could say same for anything else really. RPM, fuel flow, etc etc. If teams seen someone outside the limits then they get a investigation started (broad parameters I know but examples)

JonoNic wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:13 pm
What about something as trivial as running over rumble strips causing the limit to be reached? Would this measurement be based on a peak during a particular lap or the duration of that lap?
Thats another area that needs to be looked at before this TD can be fully enforced. Granted I do think the FIA will look at the levels outside the requirements of the bouncing at each area of the track. For example race start, madness at the first corner and one car goes over the sausage kerbs triggering the limits, I believe that would be looked at in terms of a incident rather than a problem with the setup.

One possibility is its only over xxxkm/h speed wise where your more likely to get the bouncing, which would take out the equation a lot of the corners if the limit was say 225-250kmh (I know know what speeds the bouncing starts, however used that number range as an example. Its impossible to know without the data to see what speeds the porpoising/bouncing starts).
Or you have it on certain sections of the track straights or its measured say 15metres (example) from a corner entry and exit, which will rule out kerbing.

It will be a interesting one for sure on how this is going to be enforced across the remainder of the season and into seasons to follow with this philosophy of cars. I believe Horner was right to mention that teams should have been part of discussion into the solutions, 'band aids' to this problem rather than slapping a TD down on the table with no meaningful ways of policing it, how its going to be enforced etc etc.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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henry
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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JonoNic wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:13 pm
henry wrote:
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:43 am


Or It could end up calling out someone who has flat spotted the tyre.
If the car has unacceptable* vibrations then it matters not what the source is. If it’s a flat spotted tyre then it will need to be replaced. The FIA may need to write this into the regs, along with thrown wheel balance weights, and whatever other issue there may be that puts the car outside the limits.

* outside the metrics set by the FIA.
What about something as trivial as running over rumble strips causing the limit to be reached? Would this measurement be based on a peak during a particular lap or the duration of that lap?
They’ve already said they’re going to do some sort of 3 lap average as a first stab, so I don’t think that a single instance of rumble strips will be an issue. Repeated bottoming over serrated kerbs might be an issue but it’s an easy fix, don’t race on the kerbs.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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djos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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JonoNic wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:13 pm
henry wrote:
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:43 am


Or It could end up calling out someone who has flat spotted the tyre.
If the car has unacceptable* vibrations then it matters not what the source is. If it’s a flat spotted tyre then it will need to be replaced. The FIA may need to write this into the regs, along with thrown wheel balance weights, and whatever other issue there may be that puts the car outside the limits.

* outside the metrics set by the FIA.
What about something as trivial as running over rumble strips causing the limit to be reached? Would this measurement be based on a peak during a particular lap or the duration of that lap?
They will measure bouncing down straights, where the issue is, not in the middle of corners.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Some perspective:
In MotoGP the works and semi-works Hondas are the worst that they have ever been, plain dangerous to the point where there is about a 1 in 3 chance of crashing and injury, sometimes serious and even if not a lot of pain.

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djos
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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johnny comelately wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:49 pm
Some perspective:
In MotoGP the works and semi-works Hondas are the worst that they have ever been, plain dangerous to the point where there is about a 1 in 3 chance of crashing and injury, sometimes serious and even if not a lot of pain.
Bikes are inherently dangerous, there’s just no comparison to F1!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:16 pm
They will measure bouncing down straights, where the issue is, not in the middle of corners.
It's also an issue in fast turns. Sometimes it's actually worse in turns... IRC it was the case for Mercedes in Spain.

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djos
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:21 pm
djos wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:16 pm
They will measure bouncing down straights, where the issue is, not in the middle of corners.
It's also an issue in fast turns. Sometimes it's actually worse in turns... IRC it was the case for Mercedes in Spain.
Turns it they are going to look at it as an average across 3 laps. Sounds quite sensible to me.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.