2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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I think if the monitoring works effectively the proposed solution might be ideal for the time being.
Doesn't steal the advantage of superior designs. Maybe the pressure could be alleviated somewhat for next year by allowing not too costly features like the oft mentioned inerters or tuned mass dampers.

As for active suspension, I don't think it should be allowed to fix this, but for being a very useful and interesting modern technology. If it's electromagnetic it could also be used to recover some energy. (Not sure if hydraulic ones could be used tor recover) Which tends to be popular with the FIA nowadays. I would disallow them getting positional data and pre-programmed behavior, I think that's an ugly can of worms. (Maybe allowing using sensors to scan the road ahead for better reactions, but I'm doubtful about that as well.)

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siskue2005
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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What surprises me about the new TD is that every team is against it.
I thought teams who have sorted the bouncing wouldn't mind the TD.
Really bizarre. there might be something more going on which we are not aware of

TimW
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:05 pm
What surprises me about the new TD is that every team is against it.
I thought teams who have sorted the bouncing wouldn't mind the TD.
Really bizarre. there might be something more going on which we are not aware of
I think the reason is that it not only prevents you from running a porpoising setup, but also from running very low and hard with bottoming. A ground effect car almost requires you to run hard and low, so it may impact all teams, also those who solved porpoising.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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TimW wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:12 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:05 pm
What surprises me about the new TD is that every team is against it.
I thought teams who have sorted the bouncing wouldn't mind the TD.
Really bizarre. there might be something more going on which we are not aware of
I think the reason is that it not only prevents you from running a porpoising setup, but also from running very low and hard with bottoming. A ground effect car almost requires you to run hard and low, so it may impact all teams, also those who solved porpoising.
But teams like Redbull and Alpine have absolutely zero bottoming and almost no proposing with their current car. why are they against it?

Unless there is another part of the TD about the plank wear and its flexibility which is also being looked it

A statement from the FIA read: “A Technical Directive has been issued to give guidance to the teams about the measures the FIA intends to take to tackle the problem. These include:

“1. Closer scrutiny of the planks and skids, both in terms of their design and the observed wear.


Is this what the non-porpoising teams are concerned about?

Is this the secret for not proposing or not bouncing

Are there floor flexing and damping in a way for them to be able to run closer to the ground and then raise back when going in straight?

Just some speculation

hkbruin
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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So supposedly nothing was done about changing regulations for this race and suddenly Mercs aren’t complaining of porpoising and Lewis has no bad back? Seems fishy to me that the complainers muted themselves this weekend after all that whining about safety. Turns out that perhaps it’s just a matter of setup then, and no real safety concerns ever since the FIA came out with their TD.

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henry
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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I think the FIA have handled this issue poorly. They needed to take action to protect drivers’ health. They decided that to do so they needed to establish limits on vertical accelerations. A reasonable position supported by methods and standards in public life. They set out a research phase to find out what the state of play is currently by monitoring the cars in Canada. This is a sporting issue, “don’t operate your cars in ways that may damage the health of drivers, or anyone else that might be impacted”. There is a technical aspect in that the teams need to know what will be measured, how, and what the boundaries will be. This is, in my mind, entirely analogous to load tests on bodywork.

What they did wrong, IMO, is to make other changes to the technical regulations simultaneously. Allowing an additional stay was foolish. Adding an arbitrary technical requirement, 10mm ride height increase, as a punishment for exceeding the vibration criteria was crass. It’s a sporting issue, if you’re outside the criteria then you’re operating a car outside the technical regs and the punishment is clear. Disqualification.

Sadly I don’t think they can recover this situation. The conspiracy theory’s they’ve triggered will go on for years, stoked by the cunning of the individuals who run the teams. But so long as the drivers are protected I will be happy.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:37 pm
TimW wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:12 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:05 pm
What surprises me about the new TD is that every team is against it.
I thought teams who have sorted the bouncing wouldn't mind the TD.
Really bizarre. there might be something more going on which we are not aware of
I think the reason is that it not only prevents you from running a porpoising setup, but also from running very low and hard with bottoming. A ground effect car almost requires you to run hard and low, so it may impact all teams, also those who solved porpoising.
But teams like Redbull and Alpine have absolutely zero bottoming and almost no proposing with their current car. why are they against it?
The Alpine very definitely was porpoising and bottoming at some points in Canada. The RB much less so, but still some porpoising on the straight in both Baku and Canada. If you use the drivers Helmet as the reference, some bounce a lot more than others but that they bounce is indisputable. Compare it to last year and it's crazy.
It's also intriguing that some drivers are being briefed to remain silent on the porpoising issue, according to The Race.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Formula Bounce
or
The Bounce Era

whatever shoe fits

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Espresso wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:57 pm
From own knowledge....You cannot train this. There's extensive knowledge in this field. Damage is done to the interspinal disc.
You can only have 1-3 crack .. until your career ends...
FIA could lookup the literature to quickly set the rules ......
E.g. read following:
https://sites.nd.edu/biomechanics-in-th ... the-spine/
aerobatic aircraft are designed to be used at 12g
fighter aircraft are designed to be used at 9g

but F1 is frightening itself at 6g ?

KeiKo403
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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With the TD that was announced at the weekend why are Red Bull so against it?

Generally teams don’t make a fuss unless it’s going to negatively impact their performance.

RedBull seem to have the most stable car with very little to no porpoising. Their main competition on the other hand, Ferrari, and too a much lesser extent Mercedes would be pushed further back all but guaranteeing RB 1-2s for the rest of the season.

I just don’t get it. What does RedBull stand to loose?

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djos
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:43 am
With the TD that was announced at the weekend why are Red Bull so against it?

Generally teams don’t make a fuss unless it’s going to negatively impact their performance.

RedBull seem to have the most stable car with very little to no porpoising. Their main competition on the other hand, Ferrari, and too a much lesser extent Mercedes would be pushed further back all but guaranteeing RB 1-2s for the rest of the season.

I just don’t get it. What does RedBull stand to loose?
It’s quite simple, they are unhappy that Mercedes seem to have been given advance notice of the 2nd stay being allowed as no one else was able to get one developed in time for Canada.

I don’t support either team (Mclaren fan) but to me it looks bad.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:48 am
KeiKo403 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:43 am
With the TD that was announced at the weekend why are Red Bull so against it?

Generally teams don’t make a fuss unless it’s going to negatively impact their performance.

RedBull seem to have the most stable car with very little to no porpoising. Their main competition on the other hand, Ferrari, and too a much lesser extent Mercedes would be pushed further back all but guaranteeing RB 1-2s for the rest of the season.

I just don’t get it. What does RedBull stand to loose?
It’s quite simple, they are unhappy that Mercedes seem to have been given advance notice of the 2nd stay being allowed as no one else was able to get one developed in time for Canada.

I don’t support either team (Mclaren fan) but to me it looks bad.
It might simply be procedural. The FIA said after the Baku GP they would be looking to add TD's to see what could be done. Mercedes suffered the most and therefore would be in close contact with them regarding the measures. That avenue is open to all teams right?

If a second stay is being held up as evidence as collusion between the FIA and Mercedes, specifically as a "development" others weren't in the loop on, I'd have serious reservations.
Firstly, a second stay is literally just that. Mercedes know the rebound points on the floor and it's positioning is dictated by that. Then it's about adding the stay and it's attachments.

Secondly, Mercedes kept 2 floors at the factory until the FIA released the TD, which were then flown overnight for Friday. Had it been collusive, surely they would've just been shipped over with the rest of the gear?

This seems to me that Mercedes were planning on reacting quickly to any TD the FIA would propose, and a second stay is really just a rudimentary bolt on.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am
djos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:48 am
KeiKo403 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:43 am
With the TD that was announced at the weekend why are Red Bull so against it?

Generally teams don’t make a fuss unless it’s going to negatively impact their performance.

RedBull seem to have the most stable car with very little to no porpoising. Their main competition on the other hand, Ferrari, and too a much lesser extent Mercedes would be pushed further back all but guaranteeing RB 1-2s for the rest of the season.

I just don’t get it. What does RedBull stand to loose?
It’s quite simple, they are unhappy that Mercedes seem to have been given advance notice of the 2nd stay being allowed as no one else was able to get one developed in time for Canada.

I don’t support either team (Mclaren fan) but to me it looks bad.
It might simply be procedural. The FIA said after the Baku GP they would be looking to add TD's to see what could be done. Mercedes suffered the most and therefore would be in close contact with them regarding the measures. That avenue is open to all teams right?

If a second stay is being held up as evidence as collusion between the FIA and Mercedes, specifically as a "development" others weren't in the loop on, I'd have serious reservations.
Firstly, a second stay is literally just that. Mercedes know the rebound points on the floor and it's positioning is dictated by that. Then it's about adding the stay and it's attachments.

Secondly, Mercedes kept 2 floors at the factory until the FIA released the TD, which were then flown overnight for Friday. Had it been collusive, surely they would've just been shipped over with the rest of the gear?

This seems to me that Mercedes were planning on reacting quickly to any TD the FIA would propose, and a second stay is really just a rudimentary bolt on.
Yup looked like the stay were a last minute addition. The clips on the floor were just screwed in and glued together. Looks like it can be done within 3 to 4 hours by a fully fleged f1 team

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:44 am
Quantum wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am
It might simply be procedural. The FIA said after the Baku GP they would be looking to add TD's to see what could be done. Mercedes suffered the most and therefore would be in close contact with them regarding the measures. That avenue is open to all teams right?

If a second stay is being held up as evidence as collusion between the FIA and Mercedes, specifically as a "development" others weren't in the loop on, I'd have serious reservations.
Firstly, a second stay is literally just that. Mercedes know the rebound points on the floor and it's positioning is dictated by that. Then it's about adding the stay and it's attachments.

Secondly, Mercedes kept 2 floors at the factory until the FIA released the TD, which were then flown overnight for Friday. Had it been collusive, surely they would've just been shipped over with the rest of the gear?

This seems to me that Mercedes were planning on reacting quickly to any TD the FIA would propose, and a second stay is really just a rudimentary bolt on.
Yup looked like the stay were a last minute addition. The clips on the floor were just screwed in and glued together. Looks like it can be done within 3 to 4 hours by a fully fleged f1 team
That's what I found most disturbing about Binotto's statement saying Ferrari couldn't do such things [react so quickly].
You're god-dam FERRARI man!

This maybe wishful thinking but I wonder if Ferrari are almost already accepting 2nd in the Championship and don't want to agree to changes which could see them passed by Mercedes?

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:47 am
Formula Bounce
or
The Bounce Era

whatever shoe fits
Unfit for porpoise
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.