2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Watto
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:19 pm
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:48 pm
ispano6 wrote:
I think if Sainz did get ahead it would have been possible for Max to retake the lead using DRS, possibly on the very last lap. Sainz had 3 DRS zones per lap for the last several laps to close the gap and get within 0.3s~0.4s of Max. If Max were behind and could get within the same margin at the hairpin, the RB18 seemed to have the better exit out of the hairpin and could get the power down better for the straight. It might have been an even more thrilling end!
Nope. Sainz and Verstappen had the same top speed in clean air.

Red Bull is not faster than Ferrari, this myth has to end sooner or later.
Same top speed at the same location? Do you have data on the acceleration curve and the relative top speed achieved by both cars with DRS? It looked like Max had better traction coming out of the hairpin than Sainz, so it'd be interesting but probably impossible to ever know what the outcome would have been if Max had DRS behind Sainz.
Mentioned above, I do think Sainz probably has slightly better race pace at Canada. But the difference was pretty minor in clean air Sainz didn't make much ground on Max in the 20 laps on fresher tyres. He had 5 laps to over take max post safety can and couldn't 12/13 of those iirc were with DRS, and I really don't think there were many times in all that were Sainz was that close to an overtaking Max. I think the first few laps with DRS he kinda got closeish after that Max seemed to have his measure knew where Sainz was going to attack and just stuck his car in the right place. The difference btween the two was pretty minor. .

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:02 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:14 pm
Michelangelo wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:06 am
There are a lot of Alonso haters out there as well, as much as Hamilton ones. Strange those two drivers managed to create two opposite fan bases.
As a nerd who support both Alonso and Hamilton :-s I´d say they never did anything to provoke it. Actually both of them have always been extremely kind with each other, even praising the other. Maybe in 2007, but since 2008, and even in 2008, they have always been very kind with each other

But I can´t say the same about spanish and english media, as any other btw. They need to create fanboys, and frequently provoke hate against the rivals of their favourites and hide any mistake from him. Fanboys spend a lot more money than sensible people so they add fuel at any opportunity, highlighting any not so kind quote, ignoring the kind ones, with showmans as presenters who can´t even try to be objective, etc.

In this particular case, in 2007 spanish media, specially Lobato, has been simply vomitive in this aspect (remember this comes from an spanish Alonso fan, imagine what thinnk about him people who are not #-o ). About english media, I´ve seen numerous examples of them ignoring facts about FIA and McLaren bias towards Lewis in 2007, trying to hide it so Alonso looked like a cryboy who can´t accept equal treatment.

Both of them (spanish and english media) added as much fuel as possible to create this fanboyism towards their favourite. That increases views and clicks. But they, both Alonso and Hamilton, has always been way more respectful and objective than most media from their countries
It is called 'jingoism' and is the prime source of headlines in the tabloids, and the serious papers are close behind.
I hate it. Any sport or contest of any kind become 'us v them' and it is black or white, no grey area and usually very little truh.

Indeed. The only exception, at least here in Spain, is tennis. They are very very balanced there and when the rival plays good, they praise him. Not sure if it´s because commentators are former players, or maybe because it´s an individual sport and none can hide behind others mistakes, or maybe because Federer and Nadal are such good persons that they serve great examples.

But at any other sport, it´s really disgusting. The funny thing is when you talk about this everyone agree, but that does not stop them/us from becoming fanboys #-o

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:09 pm
lh13 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:13 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:52 pm

Alonso after the hype yesterday fell like a stone today. The alpine didn't have any pace, however, his antics after he lost out to ocon was hilarious. He was saying "I need to be ahead, I was 100 times faster than him" :lol: reminded me of his famous "I brought 7 tenths" claim I'm 2007 :D and in that desperation he blocked bottas very hard...he knew exactly what he was doing.
Feel free to keep talking like this, but next time, do not cry like a kid, like you usually do, when someone says anything against your favourite driver.
Ok thanks for you insightful personal attack.
I will keep talking like this, at least my Favorite driver has 7 legitimate championships, as we don't have any astrixek on any of them. Alonso is a grumpy, vengeful and pitiful old driver who is very fast but 2007 season scared him forever and never was able to recover from it. So the pit full statement like "where is Lewis, behind Ocon, you know what to do now"' exposes him to be a grumpy person.
Hey, my favourite driver is Alonso, but also Hamilton, they own 9 titles. Does that mean I´m better than you? #-o :lol:

Funny how you accuse Alonso of grumpy, while you grumble yourself :P

just a note, 2007 didn´t scare him, 2007 did enfuriate him, wich is normal. Not too common to lose a title because of your own team did sabotage you (and FIA, but that´s more usual, as Lewis tasted himself past season)

radosav
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Alonso ( or any other driver ) haters are always the same, noone can change that, every single move they judge by their own rules and laws.
No point in taking them serious. 🤷

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Juzh
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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ispano6 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:19 pm
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:48 pm
ispano6 wrote:
I think if Sainz did get ahead it would have been possible for Max to retake the lead using DRS, possibly on the very last lap. Sainz had 3 DRS zones per lap for the last several laps to close the gap and get within 0.3s~0.4s of Max. If Max were behind and could get within the same margin at the hairpin, the RB18 seemed to have the better exit out of the hairpin and could get the power down better for the straight. It might have been an even more thrilling end!
Nope. Sainz and Verstappen had the same top speed in clean air.

Red Bull is not faster than Ferrari, this myth has to end sooner or later.
Same top speed at the same location? Do you have data on the acceleration curve and the relative top speed achieved by both cars with DRS? It looked like Max had better traction coming out of the hairpin than Sainz, so it'd be interesting but probably impossible to ever know what the outcome would have been if Max had DRS behind Sainz.
They were very evenly matched on acceleration around the track, however it was clearly visible verstappen had better traction out of hairpin and thus always gained enough distance to keep sainz at bay. Had situation been reversed (no safety car) I believe verstappen was in a better position to overtake due to this advantage, along with more effective DRS on the red bull. That's if he could catch him in the first place of course.

Watto
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Juzh wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:19 pm
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:48 pm

Nope. Sainz and Verstappen had the same top speed in clean air.

Red Bull is not faster than Ferrari, this myth has to end sooner or later.
Same top speed at the same location? Do you have data on the acceleration curve and the relative top speed achieved by both cars with DRS? It looked like Max had better traction coming out of the hairpin than Sainz, so it'd be interesting but probably impossible to ever know what the outcome would have been if Max had DRS behind Sainz.
They were very evenly matched on acceleration around the track, however it was clearly visible verstappen had better traction out of hairpin and thus always gained enough distance to keep sainz at bay. Had situation been reversed (no safety car) I believe verstappen was in a better position to overtake due to this advantage, along with more effective DRS on the red bull. That's if he could catch him in the first place of course.
Easy for me to say this from here but I felt Sainz tried the same thing over and over again for the last 15 laps after the SC to the point Verstappen knew what was coming and just placed his car accordingly though he was never able to break the tow, and get out of DRS range I don't think Sainz was that close to an overtake all that often, the commentators mentioned Sainz taking too much kerb perhaps to try keeping off it and get better drive out of some of the corners he never really seemed to do tha I feel like in reverse Verstappen would have changed his tactic up after a few laps to catch Sainz out.

But I think it would have been line ball as to whether he was able t catch and overtake too I think he probably could have but not an easy call.

Gillian
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:06 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:09 pm
lh13 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:13 am


Feel free to keep talking like this, but next time, do not cry like a kid, like you usually do, when someone says anything against your favourite driver.
Ok thanks for you insightful personal attack.
I will keep talking like this, at least my Favorite driver has 7 legitimate championships, as we don't have any astrixek on any of them. Alonso is a grumpy, vengeful and pitiful old driver who is very fast but 2007 season scared him forever and never was able to recover from it. So the pit full statement like "where is Lewis, behind Ocon, you know what to do now"' exposes him to be a grumpy person.
Hey, my favourite driver is Alonso, but also Hamilton, they own 9 titles. Does that mean I´m better than you? #-o :lol:

Funny how you accuse Alonso of grumpy, while you grumble yourself :P

just a note, 2007 didn´t scare him, 2007 did enfuriate him, wich is normal. Not too common to lose a title because of your own team did sabotage you (and FIA, but that´s more usual, as Lewis tasted himself past season)
I can relate! Alonso and Hamilton have always been my 2 'favourites' and Verstappen quickly joined that club when he came in to F1. It's really stupid to see the hateful comments towards these drivers from 'fans' who religiously support only one of those. Especially if there's hardly any bad blood between the drivers themselves. :wtf:

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Gillian wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:01 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:06 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:09 pm

Ok thanks for you insightful personal attack.
I will keep talking like this, at least my Favorite driver has 7 legitimate championships, as we don't have any astrixek on any of them. Alonso is a grumpy, vengeful and pitiful old driver who is very fast but 2007 season scared him forever and never was able to recover from it. So the pit full statement like "where is Lewis, behind Ocon, you know what to do now"' exposes him to be a grumpy person.
Hey, my favourite driver is Alonso, but also Hamilton, they own 9 titles. Does that mean I´m better than you? #-o :lol:

Funny how you accuse Alonso of grumpy, while you grumble yourself :P

just a note, 2007 didn´t scare him, 2007 did enfuriate him, wich is normal. Not too common to lose a title because of your own team did sabotage you (and FIA, but that´s more usual, as Lewis tasted himself past season)
I can relate! Alonso and Hamilton have always been my 2 'favourites' and Verstappen quickly joined that club when he came in to F1. It's really stupid to see the hateful comments towards these drivers from 'fans' who religiously support only one of those. Especially if there's hardly any bad blood between the drivers themselves. :wtf:
Yup. Sky F1 posted a clip from the media conference after the race with Max joking about the bouncing for Lewis at Silverstone. You only have to look at the comments to see the immaturity of some fans. Its kind of the stuff you'd expect in a childrens playground. Not saying it doesnt go both ways but it does seem to be going more one way than the other at the minute.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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ispano6
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Juzh wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am
They were very evenly matched on acceleration around the track, however it was clearly visible verstappen had better traction out of hairpin and thus always gained enough distance to keep sainz at bay. Had situation been reversed (no safety car) I believe verstappen was in a better position to overtake due to this advantage, along with more effective DRS on the red bull. That's if he could catch him in the first place of course.
@Juzh do you have access to the data to see what Max's DRS top speed was when he overtook Hamilton vs Sainz's highest top-speed with DRS behind Max?

dialtone
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:26 pm
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am
They were very evenly matched on acceleration around the track, however it was clearly visible verstappen had better traction out of hairpin and thus always gained enough distance to keep sainz at bay. Had situation been reversed (no safety car) I believe verstappen was in a better position to overtake due to this advantage, along with more effective DRS on the red bull. That's if he could catch him in the first place of course.
@Juzh do you have access to the data to see what Max's DRS top speed was when he overtook Hamilton vs Sainz's highest top-speed with DRS behind Max?
I'm not Juzh but I do.

Image

This is 90%ile lap from laps with DRS enabled only from the whole race, had to use distribution rather than average because Sainz had too many laps with it compared to VER and distribution is a better representation of the values in this case.

~2kph is the difference in speed on the main straight between Sainz and Verstappen in favor of Verstappen.

Ferrari has better acceleration out of T10, increasing the speed gap from around 150kph till 300kph and then RedBull has a bit less drag and regains speed against Ferrari to get to about 2kph up on them.

The 2 teams are very even on top speed when setup similarly. If Max had been behind Sainz, he would have been done for, just like Sainz was. The only thing that would have allowed a pass was a mistake from whoever would have been in front.

People listen to Sky too much.

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Ryar
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:26 pm
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am
They were very evenly matched on acceleration around the track, however it was clearly visible verstappen had better traction out of hairpin and thus always gained enough distance to keep sainz at bay. Had situation been reversed (no safety car) I believe verstappen was in a better position to overtake due to this advantage, along with more effective DRS on the red bull. That's if he could catch him in the first place of course.
@Juzh do you have access to the data to see what Max's DRS top speed was when he overtook Hamilton vs Sainz's highest top-speed with DRS behind Max?
Max - 332 (lap 37), 328(lap 44 - overtaking Lewis)

Sainz - (from lap 57 to 70)
331
322
330
316
320
317
323
325
324
326
326
326
326
325

Charles hit 342 on lap 3 and 13! He also did 336 and 337 on lap 7 and 8. I am sure he had less wing than Sainz.
Hakuna Matata!

CRazyLemon
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Ryar wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:33 am
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:26 pm
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am
They were very evenly matched on acceleration around the track, however it was clearly visible verstappen had better traction out of hairpin and thus always gained enough distance to keep sainz at bay. Had situation been reversed (no safety car) I believe verstappen was in a better position to overtake due to this advantage, along with more effective DRS on the red bull. That's if he could catch him in the first place of course.
@Juzh do you have access to the data to see what Max's DRS top speed was when he overtook Hamilton vs Sainz's highest top-speed with DRS behind Max?
Max - 332 (lap 37), 328(lap 44 - overtaking Lewis)

Sainz - (from lap 57 to 70)
331
322
330
316
320
317
323
325
324
326
326
326
326
325

Charles hit 342 on lap 3 and 13! He also did 336 and 337 on lap 7 and 8. I am sure he had less wing than Sainz.
Leclerc did have a different rear wing, but it seems it gave up traction out of slow corners, hence it makes sense it was originally due for Silverstone.

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Juzh
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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dialtone wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:27 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:26 pm
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am
They were very evenly matched on acceleration around the track, however it was clearly visible verstappen had better traction out of hairpin and thus always gained enough distance to keep sainz at bay. Had situation been reversed (no safety car) I believe verstappen was in a better position to overtake due to this advantage, along with more effective DRS on the red bull. That's if he could catch him in the first place of course.
@Juzh do you have access to the data to see what Max's DRS top speed was when he overtook Hamilton vs Sainz's highest top-speed with DRS behind Max?
I'm not Juzh but I do.

https://i.imgur.com/sMHRggH.jpeg

This is 90%ile lap from laps with DRS enabled only from the whole race, had to use distribution rather than average because Sainz had too many laps with it compared to VER and distribution is a better representation of the values in this case.

~2kph is the difference in speed on the main straight between Sainz and Verstappen in favor of Verstappen.

Ferrari has better acceleration out of T10, increasing the speed gap from around 150kph till 300kph and then RedBull has a bit less drag and regains speed against Ferrari to get to about 2kph up on them.

The 2 teams are very even on top speed when setup similarly. If Max had been behind Sainz, he would have been done for, just like Sainz was. The only thing that would have allowed a pass was a mistake from whoever would have been in front.

People listen to Sky too much.
Not trying to start another conflict, but again you're only looking at telemetry in isolation, lacking context. Verstappen had drs but never had slipstream beyond half straight as he was already passed everyone at that point, even when lapping backmarkers on few occasions. In addition, because of this he never needed to override default ERS deployment settings on the long straight, which is what sainz was doing when battling verstappen. One lap sainz got up to 332 kmh, next one 320 kmh as no overtake button was used. Basically to get any kind of speed above 320 kmh Sainz had to override pre-set defaults for best laptime and use more energy on long straight (same happened both times when overtaking ALO, no slipstream or overtake got him no big top speed). VER was doing around 328-332 kmh casually when lapping cars, no overtake button needed.
Sainz also had a significant slipstream already at less than 0.5s distance, this alone is 4-5 kmh worth (probably more). In reverse situation VER would be hitting 340+, close to leclerc on the low df wing basically.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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The race threads are so quiet and short these days. Races are OK, but not as exciting as last year.
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vanburin
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:18 pm
The race threads are so quiet and short these days. Races are OK, but not as exciting as last year.
I can't help but wonder if this in part a result of Lewis (and lesser extent Mercedes) not in the fight for pole positions/wins. Many people grow tired of dynasties, but there's no debating that the Lewis vs. Max rivalry (even if a lot of it was media/fan contrived) was certainly compelling. Right now it just doesn't feel like Max has a "real" competitor. And this is in spite of RB arguably not having the quickest car, or at the very least a car that is on par with the Ferrari.

The races have seen lots of action in the mid-pack, and it's inarguable that the cars can drive much closer to each other, but you're absolutely right that the races just don't have as much excitement as they did in the past. Maybe that is because Ferrari keep tripping themselves up (either in strategy, driver errors, or reliability).