General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:22 am
As I have previously said, I can not believe anyone who has driven a EV long enough to get used to it would ever want to go back to ICE driven.
I'm not ready to give up VTEC engines or H-pattern manual transmissions just yet. I don't see how EVs can be as fun, be it through the mountains or pottering about downtown... in either case flicking up or down through the gears, rev-matching etc (similarly I don't understand why so many prefer automatics even with ICEs). In the former case, snatching those redline upshifts with the shift lights that Honda so conveniently provided. But we will see!

Is EV really more fun in a hot hatchback or sportscar than manual transmission plus ICE?

Is there an ETA for the Honda Prolouge (a patented name that is presumed attached to Honda's EV sportscar)? If Honda can get it to market soon, they would (if I'm not mistaken) be the first automaker to produce an entry-level electric sportscar. A great thing, and a superb achievement by Honda if indeed it as fun or even more fun to drive than the MX-5 or the old S2000.

Image
Image

The latter images shows the patented shape, which eschews the concept's cars long nose design for proportions more akin to a mid-motor sportscar.
Last edited by JordanMugen on Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Big Tea
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:00 am
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:22 am
As I have previously said, I can not believe anyone who has driven a EV long enough to get used to it would ever want to go back to ICE driven.
I'm not ready to give up VTEC engines or H-pattern manual transmissions just yet. I don't see how EVs can be as fun, be it through the mountains or pottering about downtown... in either case flicking up or down through the gears, rev-matching etc (similarly I don't understand why so many prefer automatics even with ICEs). In the former case, snatching those redline upshifts with the shift lights that Honda so conveniently provided. But we will see!

Is EV really more fun in a hot hatchback or sportscar than manual transmission plus ICE?
Depends what you call fun. Performance hands down EV. If you like to see bystanders with 'that look' on their face you need open pipes and plenty of welly ( not an insult, I have been there)
Also in an EV the law never even turn their head unless you are well over
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:05 am
Depends what you call fun. Performance hands down EV
I drive a naturally aspirated Honda four cylinder car, so clearly I don't care about performance, lol. :wink:

The roads in the mountain range of my city are so tight that even a slow, "unpowered" Civic Type R feels rapid between hairpin bends (quite often it is not possible to go to full throttle between bends, so even if it had more performance it would not be of any use). It doesn't feel exactly rapid on wide, straight roads, but I don't care!

I've tried turbochaged vehicles which are quicker, I don't like them. With the factory lightweight flywheel, the throttle response of a Civic Type R is rather good for an ICE (obviously an electric motor would have superior throttle response again).

For me, the engine sound as well as slotting down from 3rd to 2nd and rev-matching while approaching the impending barrier on the outside of a hairpin corner is part of what makes it fun. Slow car fast, concentrated driving fun, lots of gears changes etc.

The notion of the car being near the edge and providing total driver confidence due to excellent chassis tuning is all rather enjoyable too. The engine sound and rpm being directly related to progress in naturally aspirated ICE fashion is certainly a part of the fun too, but is of course by no means essential and the Honda Prolouge could deliver provided the weight is kept to reasonable levels (<1400kg). :)

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:05 am
If you like to see bystanders
There are usually no bystanders in mountain ranges, what are you talking about? :?:

If there are groups of people, e.g., hikers, about then obviously one should and must slow down to a crawl and pass them politely.

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:05 am
Depends what you call fun.
Taking the Honda S2000 as an example, it is not fast (indeed some would call it slow, 1/4 mile in the low 14 second range, 0-60mph in the low 6second range, it is absolutely NOT a rapid vehicle by 1999 standards) yet most agree it is a very fun car to drive with an excellent combination of sporty engine, precise H-pattern transmission, relatively lightweight and good handling with minimal understeer (too much lift-off oversteer for some even, leading to it being made more mild after suspension revisions).

It will be impressive if the Honda Prolouge is at least as fun to drive. :)
Last edited by JordanMugen on Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Tea
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:10 am
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:05 am
Depends what you call fun. Performance hands down EV
I drive a naturally aspirated Honda four cylinder car, so clearly I don't care about performance, lol. :wink:

The roads in the mountain range of my city are so tight that even a slow, "unpowered" Civic Type R feels rapid between hairpin bends (quite often it is not possible to go to full throttle between bends, so even if it had more performance it would not be of any use). It doesn't feel exactly rapid on wide, straight roads, but I don't care!

I've tried turbochaged vehicles which are quicker, I don't like them. With the factory lightweight flywheel, the throttle response of a Civic Type R is rather good for an ICE (obviously an electric motor would have superior throttle response again).

For me, the engine sound as well as slotting down from 3rd to 2nd and rev-matching while approaching the impending barrier on the outside of a hairpin corner is what makes it fun. The notion of the car being near the edge and providing total driver confidence due to excellent chassis tuning is all rather enjoyable -- the engine sound and rpm being directly related to progress in naturally aspirated ICE fashion is certainly a part of that, but is of course by no means essential and the Honda Prolouge could deliver provided the weight is kept to reasonable levels (<1400kg). :)

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:05 am
If you like to see bystanders
There are usually no bystanders in mountain ranges, what are you talking about? :?:

If there are groups of people, e.g., hikers, about then obviously one should and must slow down to a crawl and pass them politely.
Not 'getting at you', been there done that, loved the grin on my face, but I do really wonder if you would still be quicker in an equivalent EV? (apologies if you feel offended, not my intention to call you a Hoon or what ever the local put down is, I should have made it clear)

Don't think I am anti sport driving, I'm not, but to 99% of people 99% of the time it is not relevant. Keep a fun car for things like this, but it is not comparing like for like really. I have a bike in my shed for just this sort of thing but use it less and less because of the way traffic has changed.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:28 am
Not 'getting at you', been there done that, loved the grin on my face, but I do really wonder if you would still be quicker in an equivalent EV?
The trouble is that are few, if any, EV hot hatchbacks or sportscars (entry-level ones) with relatively low weight yet.
(Also I don't care how quick I go, quality > quantity.)

Some say the Mini Cooper S EV is an excellent hot hatch EV, and arguably superior to the ICE Mini Cooper S. =D> =D> However it achieves a light kerb weight by only using a very small battery, a battery that provides a driving range below the expectations of some EV buyers. #-o

A Honda E Type R could be a great hot hatchback, but even the regular Honda E gets panned for having inadequate battery range (let alone if it had a higher power output). #-o
Last edited by JordanMugen on Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Sieper
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Would it be possible/wanted to have the option to manually “load” another battery in the car (if you need to take a long trip) whilst taking it out if you are going on a city trip, fun blast. Could be provided on its own cart, or have wheels like suitcases, to roll it to and into the vehicle.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

taperoo2k
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:51 am
Would it be possible/wanted to have the option to manually “load” another battery in the car (if you need to take a long trip) whilst taking it out if you are going on a city trip, fun blast. Could be provided on its own cart, or have wheels like suitcases, to roll it to and into the vehicle.
You have to consider the balance of the car being impacted by removing the battery and having connections that can take a beating if a battery is being constantly removed and reinserted. Then also have safety systems in place not unlike F1 that alerts you to if a car is safe to touch or not. I'm sure there is a way to do it safely, but I don't see much point given battery technology will improve over the next decade. I expect F1 will be at the forefront of that.

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etusch
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:51 am
etusch wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:55 pm
Countries which put deadline for ice's like 2035 etc are just stupid things.
No one can predict the future, so we will see! For now, the best EVs seem to be made by start-ups and not encumbered legacy ICE automakers. We will how many ICE auto makers survive the transition, if there is a transition.

You might be right and ICE vehicles may still be common on the roads in 2065, but it doesn't seem like it is going that way IMO. I'm more inclined to think that 50% of the personal vehicle fleet will be EV by 2045 (in 2022, EVs make up less than 1% of personal motor vehicles in most countries) and 99% of the personal vehicle fleet will be EV by 2065.

In 2065, even if legal to sell brand new road-going ICE vehicles (as opposed to niche racing cars), it is likely that motorists won't be interested in buying them as petrol may be both extremely difficult to find and extremely expensive by then.

Honda (and Toyota and Subaru and Mazda etc) are late to the game of full EVs but maybe they can catch up. Even though the Nissan Leaf was one of the first modern-day mass-produced EVs, Nissan hasn't really taken a leading market position and Nissan's EV portfolio and market status seems outdone by Tesla somehow.
When you think in that way you can say that toyota late to full ev game. But toyota is far ahead of everyone with hybrid vehicles and hydrogen vehicles. I think we are in hybrid era rather than EV and I don't think there will be EV era. But as you said we can not see the future. This is just my opinion but not only mine, toyota and mazda also think in that way. toyota still invests hydrogen fueled cars ( They wanted from yamaha to develop a v8). Everyone who expect EV will finish ice's existence but they assume battery tech will develop enough, charging time will be short enough and world electric generation and battery production will be enough and clean. I think they are ( goverments ( which are governed by lying by experienced liars generally ) or car makers which lies about or exaggerate cars they made) lying at least one of them. But my main reason is that, battery development will be able to hit the wall at some stage before reaching sufficient level in terms of life, charging speed. Maybe toyota's hydrogen fueled engine investments are because they are seeing limits of batteries. We will see.

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Zynerji
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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My daily is a 2004 Civic Si EP3 with a mild turbo upgrade. I have 220k miles on it, and because of proper maintenance, it drives like it is new.

I like it because it just works well. Also, I found that teaching my 4 daughters to drive on a stick shift has mentality locked their hands into "driving mode" and prevents texting while driving. That alone is worth keeping manual transmissions on the market, IMHO.

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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:44 pm
My daily is a 2004 Civic Si EP3 with a mild turbo upgrade. I have 220k miles on it
Nice! It's a shame that model Si didn't come with the EP3 Type R or RSX Type S engine, but I guess you've fixed that (and then some) with the turbocharger. How do you like the turbocharged characteristics? :)

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Zynerji
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:48 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:44 pm
My daily is a 2004 Civic Si EP3 with a mild turbo upgrade. I have 220k miles on it
Nice! It's a shame that model Si didn't come with the EP3 Type R or RSX Type S engine, but I guess you've fixed that (and then some) with the turbocharger. How do you like the turbocharged characteristics? :)
It was done before I picked it up in 2012, so I don't have a before and after comparison, but it will definitely haul the groceries! It's only got like 4-5lbs of boost, and most of that happens at lower rpm for launch. It's a good ride, and nibble/ quick enough for 6-lane interstate street fighting! 🤣

TNTHead
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:32 am
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:28 am
Not 'getting at you', been there done that, loved the grin on my face, but I do really wonder if you would still be quicker in an equivalent EV?
The trouble is that are few, if any, EV hot hatchbacks or sportscars (entry-level ones) with relatively low weight yet.
(Also I don't care how quick I go, quality > quantity.)

Some say the Mini Cooper S EV is an excellent hot hatch EV, and arguably superior to the ICE Mini Cooper S. =D> =D> However it achieves a light kerb weight by only using a very small battery, a battery that provides a driving range below the expectations of some EV buyers. #-o

A Honda E Type R could be a great hot hatchback, but even the regular Honda E gets panned for having inadequate battery range (let alone if it had a higher power output). #-o
I drive an BMW i3 as commuter car. Which is not a sport car by definition, but I like it very much for the convenient throttle response, surplus of torque available (and much faster than a standard non-sport petrol car), low CoG and nice suspension. Also very direct steering, it drives almost like a kart. It could be a more sporty car though with broader tyres. It's as one of the few EV cars in the <1400 kg range.

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etusch
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:00 am


I'm not ready to give up VTEC engines or H-pattern manual transmissions just yet. I don't see how EVs can be as fun, be it through the mountains or pottering about downtown... in either case flicking up or down through the gears, rev-matching etc (similarly I don't understand why so many prefer automatics even with ICEs). In the former case,
I can not afford a typeR for now. But I have 1.8 civic hb ( 2007 make ) with i-shift gearbox. My dream is making it supercharged and if I can do, passive prechamber ignition.
+
Dual Clutch transmission but instead of "dual clutch" ducati's way of seamless gearbox.
If I knew I can made produce it and can afford I would try a cvt speed adjuster for supercharger. Transforming a dual clutch transmission into seamless with a roller bearing clutch seems to me appliable.

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Big Tea
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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TNTHead wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:17 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:32 am
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:28 am
Not 'getting at you', been there done that, loved the grin on my face, but I do really wonder if you would still be quicker in an equivalent EV?
The trouble is that are few, if any, EV hot hatchbacks or sportscars (entry-level ones) with relatively low weight yet.
(Also I don't care how quick I go, quality > quantity.)

Some say the Mini Cooper S EV is an excellent hot hatch EV, and arguably superior to the ICE Mini Cooper S. =D> =D> However it achieves a light kerb weight by only using a very small battery, a battery that provides a driving range below the expectations of some EV buyers. #-o

A Honda E Type R could be a great hot hatchback, but even the regular Honda E gets panned for having inadequate battery range (let alone if it had a higher power output). #-o
I drive an BMW i3 as commuter car. Which is not a sport car by definition, but I like it very much for the convenient throttle response, surplus of torque available (and much faster than a standard non-sport petrol car), low CoG and nice suspension. Also very direct steering, it drives almost like a kart. It could be a more sporty car though with broader tyres. It's as one of the few EV cars in the <1400 kg range.
Wider tyres would reduce range. They have to produce it to sell rather than to be what you want.
They are quick off the mark though, my neighbour has one.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

TNTHead
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:12 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:17 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:32 am


The trouble is that are few, if any, EV hot hatchbacks or sportscars (entry-level ones) with relatively low weight yet.
(Also I don't care how quick I go, quality > quantity.)

Some say the Mini Cooper S EV is an excellent hot hatch EV, and arguably superior to the ICE Mini Cooper S. =D> =D> However it achieves a light kerb weight by only using a very small battery, a battery that provides a driving range below the expectations of some EV buyers. #-o

A Honda E Type R could be a great hot hatchback, but even the regular Honda E gets panned for having inadequate battery range (let alone if it had a higher power output). #-o
I drive an BMW i3 as commuter car. Which is not a sport car by definition, but I like it very much for the convenient throttle response, surplus of torque available (and much faster than a standard non-sport petrol car), low CoG and nice suspension. Also very direct steering, it drives almost like a kart. It could be a more sporty car though with broader tyres. It's as one of the few EV cars in the <1400 kg range.
Wider tyres would reduce range. They have to produce it to sell rather than to be what you want.
They are quick off the mark though, my neighbour has one.
Indeed, I am more aimed at the most efficient drive more than fast cornering, the low specific energy capacity (500 kg for 40 kWh) still remains the major drawback for widespread application, but thats more for another thread.