2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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jz11 wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:38 pm
Quantum wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:08 pm

So we-lap-any-car-at-some-tracks-as-yet-undefined-range is the definition of dominance?


To win 70% of the races is not enough. You must lap the field too.
Ok, we shall add this arbitrarily.
in short - the _car_ didn't win those 70%, the whole team did, and not without help from Ferrari and Mercedes

statistics alone don't tell the whole story
Fair point.
So applied evenly we can say the same of 2014....2014 Mercedes had spaceships, right?
This goes uncontested.

Yet, Ricciardo got done over by RB in the first 2 races (disqualified and pit error) and later in the season at Brazil(suspension), then had some driver errors in others(Austria) and bad luck in others (Germany) ... found himself 60 points behind Lewis Hamilton with 5 races left.

The 2022 RB has an 80% larger margin with even less of the season completed.

So either we don't apply factors evenly (ie not without help from Ferrari and Merc), or we accept that mitigating circumstances apply to all eras of domination?
"Interplay of triads"

jz11
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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this is derailment, my point was that the car is not dominant when it gets pole by 0.02sec and needs circumstances and flawless driving to score wins, this is where I end my participation in this discussion

jz11
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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mendis wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:23 pm
You are a wise man.
I'd rather say - cautious, I sense someone already reporting my posts and mods again thinking about restricting my ability to express my thoughts here :D

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ringo
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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I laugh at how people are trying to reason that the car is somehow equal to Ferrari. When Leclerc is driving balls to the wall every race, and Max is barely even driving the car at 75% to win. He has yet to be huffing and puffing and wiping his brow coming out of this car. In fact in his wins this year, its plain to see the drives were quite easy for him.
Compared to last year where he was a haggard mess after coming out the cockpit.
The RB18 is waltzing through, and just like 2014, the car is flying half mast. They are not pushing the car in the races.
For Sure!!

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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ringo wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:59 am
I laugh at how people are trying to reason that the car is somehow equal to Ferrari. When Leclerc is driving balls to the wall every race, and Max is barely even driving the car at 75% to win. He has yet to be huffing and puffing and wiping his brow coming out of this car. In fact in his wins this year, its plain to see the drives were quite easy for him.
Compared to last year where he was a haggard mess after coming out the cockpit.
The RB18 is waltzing through, and just like 2014, the car is flying half mast. They are not pushing the car in the races.
It's definitely been a stretch with some of the excuses.
Like only other teams took it easy during their periods of domination to make it closer(turning engines down).
Only RB experienced opponent misfortune.
Domination means lapping everyone, not one driver winning over 65% of the races.

The view is riddled with double standard metric application.
"Interplay of triads"

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:50 am
ringo wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:59 am
I laugh at how people are trying to reason that the car is somehow equal to Ferrari. When Leclerc is driving balls to the wall every race, and Max is barely even driving the car at 75% to win. He has yet to be huffing and puffing and wiping his brow coming out of this car. In fact in his wins this year, its plain to see the drives were quite easy for him.
Compared to last year where he was a haggard mess after coming out the cockpit.
The RB18 is waltzing through, and just like 2014, the car is flying half mast. They are not pushing the car in the races.
.
It's definitely been a stretch with some of the excuses.
Like only other teams took it easy during their periods of domination to make it closer(turning engines down).
Only RB experienced opponent misfortune.
Domination means lapping everyone, not one driver winning over 65% of the races.

The view is riddled with double standard metric application.
.
Image
The Power of Honda!

mendis
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Wouter wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:07 am
Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:50 am
ringo wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:59 am
I laugh at how people are trying to reason that the car is somehow equal to Ferrari. When Leclerc is driving balls to the wall every race, and Max is barely even driving the car at 75% to win. He has yet to be huffing and puffing and wiping his brow coming out of this car. In fact in his wins this year, its plain to see the drives were quite easy for him.
Compared to last year where he was a haggard mess after coming out the cockpit.
The RB18 is waltzing through, and just like 2014, the car is flying half mast. They are not pushing the car in the races.
.
It's definitely been a stretch with some of the excuses.
Like only other teams took it easy during their periods of domination to make it closer(turning engines down).
Only RB experienced opponent misfortune.
Domination means lapping everyone, not one driver winning over 65% of the races.

The view is riddled with double standard metric application.
.
https://c.tenor.com/MZUvIWZCFfIAAAAM/vi ... ection.gif
Is it broken yet?

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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mendis wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:23 am
Wouter wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:07 am
Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:50 am

.
It's definitely been a stretch with some of the excuses.
Like only other teams took it easy during their periods of domination to make it closer(turning engines down).
Only RB experienced opponent misfortune.
Domination means lapping everyone, not one driver winning over 65% of the races.

The view is riddled with double standard metric application.
.
https://c.tenor.com/MZUvIWZCFfIAAAAM/vi ... ection.gif
.
Is it broken yet?
.
Many of his (the same) posts were removed but he still keeps repeating the same things, over and over and over again.
The Power of Honda!

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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I see you add "value" to the conversation, by not addressing the point but with personal attacks. Telling that.
"Interplay of triads"

101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:44 am
I see you add "value" to the conversation, by not addressing the point but with personal attacks. Telling that.
Not really and you know it. The vast majority see the conversation for what it was. The car isn’t dominant per se but other factors have made the points gap what it is.
But feel free to keep posting more and more outlandish stuff. Like Max having only to drive at 75% for most of the season. It’s sad not seeing HAM (or Merc) at the sharp end but your revisionist side of the recent past is quite an amazing feat.
Anyway, good luck with it. Some people just won’t be reasoned with. And you’re entitled to your opinion.

DChemTech
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Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:50 am
ringo wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:59 am
I laugh at how people are trying to reason that the car is somehow equal to Ferrari. When Leclerc is driving balls to the wall every race, and Max is barely even driving the car at 75% to win. He has yet to be huffing and puffing and wiping his brow coming out of this car. In fact in his wins this year, its plain to see the drives were quite easy for him.
Compared to last year where he was a haggard mess after coming out the cockpit.
The RB18 is waltzing through, and just like 2014, the car is flying half mast. They are not pushing the car in the races.
It's definitely been a stretch with some of the excuses.
Like only other teams took it easy during their periods of domination to make it closer(turning engines down).
Only RB experienced opponent misfortune.
Domination means lapping everyone, not one driver winning over 65% of the races.

The view is riddled with double standard metric application.
At risk of getting dragged back into a discussion that I really no longer want to engage in, I just want to give you one hypothetical scenario, to which you just have to answer yes or no.

Say there is a complete season where each team has their current car, no development.
Due to crashes and driver errors (never due to technical issues), everyone except Latifi fails to finish every race. Latifi - who nearly always started and drove in the back as long as there were others in contention - wins each and every race and is the absolute winner of the season.

Does this make the Williams the dominant car? Yes or no?

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:56 am
Not really and you know it. The vast majority see the conversation for what it was. The car isn’t dominant per se but other factors have made the points gap what it is.
But feel free to keep posting more and more outlandish stuff. Like Max having only to drive at 75% for most of the season. It’s sad not seeing HAM (or Merc) at the sharp end but your revisionist side of the recent past is quite an amazing feat.
Anyway, good luck with it. Some people just won’t be reasoned with. And you’re entitled to your opinion.
Max only has to drive 75%? :-k
I didn't write that.

A Hamilton fan?
I'm not.

Revisionist is ignoring the results, and creating a series of excuses not afforded to other eras of domination.
Why can this point never be addressed by any of the "vast majority"?

Why can we not afford the same criteria to the "spaceship" 2014 Mercedes? You say the vast majority can see it differently, but again, it's really just "oh 2022 will be judged by arbitrary criterion - others can be judged differently".

But as you say, you're entitled to that.
"Interplay of triads"

Gillian
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

Post

Wouter wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:07 am
Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:50 am
ringo wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:59 am
I laugh at how people are trying to reason that the car is somehow equal to Ferrari. When Leclerc is driving balls to the wall every race, and Max is barely even driving the car at 75% to win. He has yet to be huffing and puffing and wiping his brow coming out of this car. In fact in his wins this year, its plain to see the drives were quite easy for him.
Compared to last year where he was a haggard mess after coming out the cockpit.
The RB18 is waltzing through, and just like 2014, the car is flying half mast. They are not pushing the car in the races.
.
It's definitely been a stretch with some of the excuses.
Like only other teams took it easy during their periods of domination to make it closer(turning engines down).
Only RB experienced opponent misfortune.
Domination means lapping everyone, not one driver winning over 65% of the races.

The view is riddled with double standard metric application.
.
https://c.tenor.com/MZUvIWZCFfIAAAAM/vi ... ection.gif
:lol:

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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jz11 wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:49 pm
this is derailment, my point was that the car is not dominant when it gets pole by 0.02sec and needs circumstances and flawless driving to score wins, this is where I end my participation in this discussion
Did you watch the 2009 dominance? Even when the Brawns lost their qualifying advantage they dominated the races for a good while still.

In fact the RB18 is more dominant than the Brawns come to think of it.
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SiLo
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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The only thing that anyone is able to grasp to as some form of mitigating fgctor is that Perez is nowhere compared to Verstappen. RB have not been dominant all year, it's just recency bias. They have certainly made a big step with Max since the summer break, and Ferrari being Ferrari has artificially made the gap bigger than it should be.
Felipe Baby!