2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Entity wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:58 am
first post for me, long time reader, first poster et al:

I see your point Andres, and although my team is Alpine (being a Renault fan, alpine as its successor, progeny etc.) I can't help but feel the Williams (or any other) intro to F1 wouldn't have been bad for the likes of Piastri.

We know Mclaren is on a push to do better (much) then they are currently. So Piastri will be from day 1 under pressure (lots of it). Look at Vandoorne's foray into McLaren at a time when they where hellbent to push for greatness.

Ok, Vandoorne had the unfortune of being at Mcl at a time when they had their heads so far up their …. that they thought they where perfect, their car was perfect and the only thing letting them down was their drivers.. but he was a well respected driver and winner in the lower ranks, could have had a very good career in F1, if he hadn't ben at MCL in his first years.

Had Vandoorne been introduced at a better point with MCL, or in a lower car with less pressure we might have seen a George Russel like scenario.


All this to say that Piastri getting into MCL at a time when they need people to deliver, from the go, with a lot of pressure against a driver (lando) who is very competitive and at home in the team / the car... might turn sour for him.

Don't get me wrong, props to him for going for the big stuff straight away, but I don't feel like a gentle introduction into F1 is a bad thing per-se. Enough examples exist of drivers getting their bearings in a lower ranked team before moving on to do great things.

Dismissing a 1/2y Williams drive as something which is to be avoided at all cost is … well wrong in my opinion.
Hope he delivers quick enough for MCL, because I doubt his career will go well for him if he doesn't deliver at MCL quick enough.

With regards to contracts, I do feel that this will change somethings for future junior drivers.
I believe contracts will be more cutthroat from now on, not only from Alpine but also RB, Merc,...
I get your point, but you're doing some assumptions I disagree with.

First none said Williams must be avoided at all cost, it's a great team for a rookie to get used to F1. But Piastri could decide Williams or McLaren... Do you think any driver will choose Williams if he can go to McLaren? Obviously not.

Then I don't think he'll suffer excessive pressure, he's a rookie and McLaren know it. No F1 team will demand results in the very first season of a rookie

Maybe best scenario for rookies would be Williams for 1-2 seasons, then moving to a top team, but F1 seats are not in excess. If I was in Piastri position, I would have zero doubts, if McLaren is possible, f##k Williams, I'm signing with McLaren instantly and will celebrate the contract as a great success, because it is, rookies don't have these opportunities frequently


Edit: also that risk of being thrashed by Lando is only a treat if you think Piastri can't beat him. But any driver think he can be WDC and beat any teammate, actually they like tough teammates to prove theirselves, their teams, and top teams, so what you consider a drawback, probably was a positive for Piastri

Time will tell, but Piastri position is the dream for any rookie... Except Lewis whose first season was on a even more competitive car, with an even more competitive teammate. I don't think he regret about that, do you? :D

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continuum16
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:20 pm
Entity wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:58 am
[...]
[...]
Then I don't think he'll suffer excessive pressure, he's a rookie and McLaren know it. No F1 team will demand results in the very first season of a rookie
[...]
Normally I'd agree with you but if McLaren didn't demand immediate results they wouldn't have replaced Ricciardo in the first place, since clearly they are not saving money on the deal. If Piastri doesn't perform then McLaren gains nothing and Alpine can say they dodged a bullet. McLaren are looking for Hamilton or Verstappen type rookie season; seemingly forgetting that they are the exception and not the rule.

Anyways, Alpine need to move on and make tangible progress with the car, or it won't matter who is driving it. Even though 2022 is a marginal step forward compared to 2021, a works team that has had full works status for six years needs to start delivering or risk becoming the new Toyota (without the budget).
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
- Mark Twain

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Not sure what we're still arguing about. We all agree Alpine screwed this one up at the contract level, everything else is just creme brulee!

r101
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:20 pm
Time will tell, but Piastri position is the dream for any rookie... Except Lewis whose first season was on a even more competitive car, with an even more competitive teammate. I don't think he regret about that, do you? :D
Lewis had driven a McLaren way more than his teammate did prior to the start of the season, and had full support from Ron. Evil mastermind Ron.

Nowdays, Ron is gone and you cannot do that much testing to have a jump at someone who has been in the team for years.

But (as we all noticed) the kid does not lack confidence in his own abilities. Fun year ahead.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Entity wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:58 am
Dismissing a 1/2y Williams drive as something which is to be avoided at all cost is … well wrong in my opinion.
Don't forget it was 1y sabbatical / 2y Williams which was an inferior deal to Russell's 3y Williams.

If Alpine had provided a deal without the sabbatical it may have been viewed more favourably by Piastri.

Going to Alpine in the 4th year is a long delay, and obviously less attractive than going to Mercedes in the 4th year. Notwithstanding that Russell did grumble about that (unlike what Rossi says) and by comparison Verstappen went to Red Bull in his 2nd year, likewise Gasly, likewise Leclerc to Ferrari in his 2nd year, Albon to Red Bull in his 1st year, while Norris himself debuted directly at McLaren in his 1st year without even a sabbatical at all.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:44 pm
Not sure what we're still arguing about. We all agree Alpine screwed this one up at the contract level, everything else is just creme brulee!
It seems Doohan will face similar problems without a more proactive approach from Alpine management. Will Alpine not learn from their errors?! :shock:

Now, irrespective of his value, we still believe that the best path for a young driver is to potentially go in a team where you have a bit of less pressure to deliver. So I’d rather have him damage his first wing somewhere else; find his limits in a new car, because the step is big from an F2 to F1.
- Laurent Rossi
https://the-race.com/formula-1/doohan-i ... elsewhere/

Great, but you don't have a B-team, you didn't buy Caterham-Renault when you had the chance... :roll:

To think Red Bull swiftly and proactively acquired Minardi, while the likes of Renault (and Mercedes and McLaren) dilly-dallied on the topic of acquiring a useful B-team for decades...

djos wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:27 am
The whole issue with Alpine is that they made lots of noises about looking after Oscar, but when the rubber hit the road, they gave him nothing. They made it perfectly clear they wanted to keep Alonso.
It seems that way, what a mess! To say Piastri is the top priority but provide only a reserve role for 2022 - failing to secure available seats at Williams, Alfa Romeo or HAAS - and then for 2023 & 2024 offer a one plus one year contract to Alonso instead. #-o

ringo wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:20 pm
Alpine's development plan for him is actually a gift that no other young driver in F-1 has ever received.
:roll: Verstappen for one disagrees with that, fast-tracked into Toro Rosso without GP2 or Renault World Series and then fast-tracked into Red Bull with minimal car racing experience. Not to mention Hamilton's testing program and F1 debut.

Rodak
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:44 pm
Not sure what we're still arguing about. We all agree Alpine screwed this one up at the contract level, everything else is just creme brulee!
Agreed. One further response to some of the previous comments about loyalty in both directions. In my experience corporate loyalty goes in exactly on direction, and not to the benefit of the employee. Here in the States you can be laid off (redundancy) in one second if management decides to do so and you will be out the door in a flash with your private things in a box escorted by security. The only reasonable strategy any employee can have is their own self interest, as it is certain the company has no interest in your well being. Yeah, it has happened to me but things turned out well, as I hope they do with Piastri. Good for him Weber was on top of things.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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continuum16 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:33 pm
Normally I'd agree with you but if McLaren didn't demand immediate results they wouldn't have replaced Ricciardo in the first place, since clearly they are not saving money on the deal.
Clearly? They´ll pay Piastri a similar paycheck than Ricciardo? I doubt it, they´ll save a lot of money and probably results will be similar or even better

continuum16 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:33 pm
McLaren are looking for Hamilton or Verstappen type rookie season; seemingly forgetting that they are the exception and not the rule.
May I ask the reason for you to do such a bold assumption? no F1 team has ever demanded that kind of results to a rookie, not even McLaren to Hamilton nor RBR to Verstappen

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:53 am
continuum16 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:33 pm
Normally I'd agree with you but if McLaren didn't demand immediate results they wouldn't have replaced Ricciardo in the first place, since clearly they are not saving money on the deal.
Clearly? They´ll pay Piastri a similar paycheck than Ricciardo? I doubt it, they´ll save a lot of money and probably results will be similar or even better

continuum16 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:33 pm
McLaren are looking for Hamilton or Verstappen type rookie season; seemingly forgetting that they are the exception and not the rule.
May I ask the reason for you to do such a bold assumption? no F1 team has ever demanded that kind of results to a rookie, not even McLaren to Hamilton nor RBR to Verstappen
Points is not the only way to look at things, with the CAP, you also need to consider accidents.

It would be a huge surprise if McLaren are ready to jump into the fight with the top 2 in 2023. They are a long way back from those two. So Piastri has some time. Also, oddly, if McLaren finish 5th and Alpine 4th, McLaren still take home more prize money. One of those cruel left overs from the Bernie era.

Entity
Entity
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:53 am
continuum16 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:33 pm
Normally I'd agree with you but if McLaren didn't demand immediate results they wouldn't have replaced Ricciardo in the first place, since clearly they are not saving money on the deal.
Clearly? They´ll pay Piastri a similar paycheck than Ricciardo? I doubt it, they´ll save a lot of money and probably results will be similar or even better
Didnt they (MCL) have to pay RIC for 2023, ie: pay out his contract ? I might be mistaken about that, but that was my impression at least. So instead of paying less, they pay more.

Drivers arent in the CAP, but I am kind of curious as to how the CAP takes into account a non-driving.. driver ?
is he considered a driver and this not subject to the CAP, or is he a cost ?

Not to wish bad things on MCL, but having these kinds of redundant costs be considered in the CAP, might make things a bit more interesting.

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ringo
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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djos wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:27 am
The whole issue with Alpine is that they made lots of noises about looking after Oscar, but when the rubber hit the road, they gave him nothing. They made it perfectly clear they wanted to keep Alonso.
No i think you overlook what Rossi said.
Alpine was delivering what Oscar agrees to in November 2021. They did everything he agrees to, the 3500km, the willaims deal etc.
Did he express dissatisfaction to them? No he did not. He was getting what he agreed to.
At what stage did he feel Alpine lied?
The answer is none. Because they did not sign a HOA for him to be a driver in 2022 or 2023.
So no lies told and no promises broken.
Now he gets a 2023 alpine drive and must feel dumb for signing for Mclaren to get dismantled by Norris in 2023.
For Sure!!

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ringo
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:20 pm
Entity wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:58 am
first post for me, long time reader, first poster et al:

I see your point Andres, and although my team is Alpine (being a Renault fan, alpine as its successor, progeny etc.) I can't help but feel the Williams (or any other) intro to F1 wouldn't have been bad for the likes of Piastri.

We know Mclaren is on a push to do better (much) then they are currently. So Piastri will be from day 1 under pressure (lots of it). Look at Vandoorne's foray into McLaren at a time when they where hellbent to push for greatness.

Ok, Vandoorne had the unfortune of being at Mcl at a time when they had their heads so far up their …. that they thought they where perfect, their car was perfect and the only thing letting them down was their drivers.. but he was a well respected driver and winner in the lower ranks, could have had a very good career in F1, if he hadn't ben at MCL in his first years.

Had Vandoorne been introduced at a better point with MCL, or in a lower car with less pressure we might have seen a George Russel like scenario.


All this to say that Piastri getting into MCL at a time when they need people to deliver, from the go, with a lot of pressure against a driver (lando) who is very competitive and at home in the team / the car... might turn sour for him.

Don't get me wrong, props to him for going for the big stuff straight away, but I don't feel like a gentle introduction into F1 is a bad thing per-se. Enough examples exist of drivers getting their bearings in a lower ranked team before moving on to do great things.

Dismissing a 1/2y Williams drive as something which is to be avoided at all cost is … well wrong in my opinion.
Hope he delivers quick enough for MCL, because I doubt his career will go well for him if he doesn't deliver at MCL quick enough.

With regards to contracts, I do feel that this will change somethings for future junior drivers.
I believe contracts will be more cutthroat from now on, not only from Alpine but also RB, Merc,...
I get your point, but you're doing some assumptions I disagree with.

First none said Williams must be avoided at all cost, it's a great team for a rookie to get used to F1. But Piastri could decide Williams or McLaren... Do you think any driver will choose Williams if he can go to McLaren? Obviously not.

Then I don't think he'll suffer excessive pressure, he's a rookie and McLaren know it. No F1 team will demand results in the very first season of a rookie

Maybe best scenario for rookies would be Williams for 1-2 seasons, then moving to a top team, but F1 seats are not in excess. If I was in Piastri position, I would have zero doubts, if McLaren is possible, f##k Williams, I'm signing with McLaren instantly and will celebrate the contract as a great success, because it is, rookies don't have these opportunities frequently


Edit: also that risk of being thrashed by Lando is only a treat if you think Piastri can't beat him. But any driver think he can be WDC and beat any teammate, actually they like tough teammates to prove theirselves, their teams, and top teams, so what you consider a drawback, probably was a positive for Piastri

Time will tell, but Piastri position is the dream for any rookie... Except Lewis whose first season was on a even more competitive car, with an even more competitive teammate. I don't think he regret about that, do you? :D
Piastri has no training in Mclaren equipment. He will be a deer in the headlights. Alpine will hold him as long as possible before they let him go to get familiar with mclaren team and culturr and car. He is being thrown into the deep end.
Lando will destroy him. Hamilton was an extremely special case. We have never seen a driver like that since. I do not think Piastri is that guy.
But anyhow its a done deal and i am a Lando fan so i am looking forward to lando being the serious experienced guy and not the jovial carefree kid. He will pummel piastri in defense of his reputation.
For Sure!!

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djos
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:32 am
djos wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:27 am
The whole issue with Alpine is that they made lots of noises about looking after Oscar, but when the rubber hit the road, they gave him nothing. They made it perfectly clear they wanted to keep Alonso.
No i think you overlook what Rossi said.
Alpine was delivering what Oscar agrees to in November 2021. They did everything he agrees to, the 3500km, the willaims deal etc.
Did he express dissatisfaction to them? No he did not. He was getting what he agreed to.
At what stage did he feel Alpine lied?
The answer is none. Because they did not sign a HOA for him to be a driver in 2022 or 2023.
So no lies told and no promises broken.
Now he gets a 2023 alpine drive and must feel dumb for signing for Mclaren to get dismantled by Norris in 2023.
Laurent, is that you? #-o
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Just read this "...Last week the team held a private test in Hungary for Nyck de Vries, Antonio Giovinazzi and Jack Doohan..."
Old news? (29th September)

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:32 am
Did [Piastri] express dissatisfaction to them? No he did not.
Incorrect, even from Laurent Rossi:

Auto Motor und Sport: Didn't Piastri ever tell you he didn't want to ride for Alpine anymore?

Laurent Rossi: Yes, he has. He was disappointed that we bet on Alonso and not on him straight away. And he didn't want to drive for Williams. We told him he can be happy with what he's getting.


https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... huldfrage/

ringo wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:37 am
[Norris] will pummel piastri in defense of his reputation.
:lol:

If Piastri is such a poor driver as suggested he won't succeed in F1 anyway, but it is unlikely that Piastri will be as poor as Latifi or Mazepin as suggested.