Mercedes W13

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Post Reply
mantikos
35
Joined: 02 Mar 2011, 17:35

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 14:26
organic wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 14:24
marcel171281 wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 14:24


I don't believe they have difficulty to get temp in the tyres, otherwise they wouldn't get the hard tyres to work so easily in Zandvoort for instance. Form the outlap on they were quick in that stint.

There are two forms of deg. Wear, the most obvious, but also thermal deg. The latter is the change in chemical composition of the rubber due too long or over exposure to (too) high temps. I believe the Mercedes is very good at the latter, which means they are good in controlling tyre core temps on long stints.

Getting temp in the tyres initially and keeping the peak temps under control are not necessarily connected as one has mostly to do with surface temps and the other with core temps.

This also indicated that the suspension of the Mercedes is not the issue this year. On the contrary, I believe it is their strongest point.
Zandvoort is an outlier to be honest. It has extremely high load on the tyres due to the banking. Merc have had a tyre temperature issue for a long time. Not just all of 2022 bar Hungary and Zandvoort, but in 2021 as well. It's something fundamental to their philosophy I am supposing
It goes back even further. That's why they had devices like the rim heating and DAS.
Agree - they went from eating their tires, to using them on the wrong side (if anyone remembers that) to being too mild on their tires and not being able to get enough heat in them fast enough. The pendulum swung too far the other way.

User avatar
continuum16
49
Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 17:35
Location: Kansas
Contact:

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

mantikos wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 16:25
AR3-GP wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 14:26
organic wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 14:24


Zandvoort is an outlier to be honest. It has extremely high load on the tyres due to the banking. Merc have had a tyre temperature issue for a long time. Not just all of 2022 bar Hungary and Zandvoort, but in 2021 as well. It's something fundamental to their philosophy I am supposing
It goes back even further. That's why they had devices like the rim heating and DAS.
Agree - they went from eating their tires, to using them on the wrong side (if anyone remembers that) to being too mild on their tires and not being able to get enough heat in them fast enough. The pendulum swung too far the other way.
I also agree. In 2013 they shredded through Pirellis faster than anyone. Since then, they seem to have been unable to consistently find a balance between that problem and their current one without the use of trick suspension/wheel elements (FRIC, rim heating, DAS, etc.). Look back at even the dominant years; tracks which put a heavy emphasis on mechanical grip, tire temp control, and degradation management (especially on the rear) have been a weakness. Monaco, Singapore, even Mexico. Tracks which essentially nullify any high-speed/aero advantage the car might have. Now every weekend looks like Baku 2021, or Singapore 2017, where the car is simply lacking the grip of RB/Ferrari.

The other team which uses the same suspension as Merc? Aston. The other car that woefully struggles to generate/control tire temp? Aston. Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt. Will be interesting to see if they change it significantly next year. I think the problem is semi-circular though; better aero (which I think we could all admit is at least not as good compared to the field as recent years) would bring more DF and more consistent DF which would work the tires more effectively.
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
- Mark Twain

User avatar
ringo
225
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

That tyre temp issue is tied to aero consistency.
We know things like brake ducts and rim heating can be tweaked. But it's the aero and how the suspension manages the aero platform that influences how the suspension will be setup and in turn influences wear and temps.

There was a lovely picture in the rb thread with the rb18 at monza almost looking like it was slammed to the ground, especially at the rear. The rb is doing some really magical stuff. all od its systems are harmonized to give the best aero efficiency.
The W13 just seems disjointed.
What's the relationship between ride height and drag?
What if a floor has high mass flow underneath while its skirts sheild the sides?
What if that mass flow is cut off or very low ib the same situation?

regarding the tyre wear. Any relationship with wheel base and tyre wear over the years with these W cars. Wheelbase has hardly been mentioned this year.
For Sure!!

Tzk
Tzk
33
Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 12:49

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

ringo wrote:
17 Sep 2022, 04:09
Wheelbase has hardly been mentioned this year.
Probably because all cars more or less got the maximum allowed wheelbase of 3600mm. In the past (2017/18?) the Mercs had a lot more (like 3750mm) and RB was the shortest of all, but still all teams had a wheelbase of >3600mm in 2021.

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

ringo wrote:
17 Sep 2022, 04:09
That tyre temp issue is tied to aero consistency.
We know things like brake ducts and rim heating can be tweaked. But it's the aero and how the suspension manages the aero platform that influences how the suspension will be setup and in turn influences wear and temps.

There was a lovely picture in the rb thread with the rb18 at monza almost looking like it was slammed to the ground, especially at the rear. The rb is doing some really magical stuff. all od its systems are harmonized to give the best aero efficiency.
The W13 just seems disjointed.
What's the relationship between ride height and drag?
What if a floor has high mass flow underneath while its skirts sheild the sides?
What if that mass flow is cut off or very low ib the same situation?

regarding the tyre wear. Any relationship with wheel base and tyre wear over the years with these W cars. Wheelbase has hardly been mentioned this year.
Rim heating (as used previously) is, in effect banned now due to the prescriptiveness of the rules around the ‘cake tin’ brake ducting, larger ‘standard’ wheel-rims and wheel covers.
Mercedes were early masters of this, they were the first out with really ‘weird’ rim designs to control heat retention in the wheel-rim.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Magicsenna_41
0
Joined: 30 Jul 2021, 00:26

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Image

https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... italy-964/

front left looks extreme to me.
other cars out of ascari dont behave like this.
maybe the RedBull but nothing compared to the Merc.

Full gallery of other cars here (scroll down to middle of page)
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... -pictures/

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
550
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Magicsenna_41 wrote:
18 Sep 2022, 17:20
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... italy-964/

https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... italy-964/

front left looks extreme to me.
other cars out of ascari dont behave like this.
maybe the RedBull but nothing compared to the Merc.

Full gallery of other cars here (scroll down to middle of page)
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/09/202 ... -pictures/
What do you mean?
If you are talking about the lifting of the wheel it is the roll bar that prevents it from dropping lower.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

holeindalip
17
Joined: 11 Jun 2013, 01:58
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

mantikos wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 16:25
AR3-GP wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 14:26
organic wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 14:24


Zandvoort is an outlier to be honest. It has extremely high load on the tyres due to the banking. Merc have had a tyre temperature issue for a long time. Not just all of 2022 bar Hungary and Zandvoort, but in 2021 as well. It's something fundamental to their philosophy I am supposing
It goes back even further. That's why they had devices like the rim heating and DAS.
Agree - they went from eating their tires, to using them on the wrong side (if anyone remembers that) to being too mild on their tires and not being able to get enough heat in them fast enough. The pendulum swung too far the other way.
It wasn't just Merc swapping the tire sides, it was pretty common trend of 2013 up and down the grid. After Silverstone they brought the new construction. Tires and red bull walked the rest of the year.....

El_KaPpa
20
Joined: 20 Feb 2013, 14:33

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Image
Image
Last edited by El_KaPpa on 29 Sep 2022, 17:10, edited 2 times in total.
Of course I struggle. I just don’t quit.

User avatar
organic
948
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Image

User avatar
prox
1
Joined: 29 Aug 2019, 13:08

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Have they dropped "Mercedes' from the team moniker?
AMG Petronas Formula 1 Team

SadgeHands
0
Joined: 30 Sep 2022, 17:42

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

prox wrote:
30 Sep 2022, 14:48
Have they dropped "Mercedes' from the team moniker?
AMG Petronas Formula 1 Team
No. It's still Mercedes-AMG Petronas Formula One team. They've always just used the Mercedes star rather than writing "Mercedes".

User avatar
prox
1
Joined: 29 Aug 2019, 13:08

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

ah ok thanks for that

Evo2racer
1
Joined: 21 Mar 2022, 12:05

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Amazing to hear directly from Toto :
that the w13 (right now) is 10kg overweight and that they brought about 3.5 M of Euro of upgraded parts since the beginning of the season!

Also very important & I interesting to note that Mb Amg didn’t make the W13 lighter because they needed to respect the 2022 budget cap!

OO7
OO7
171
Joined: 06 Apr 2010, 17:49

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

10kg is roughly worth four tenths per lap around a typical circuit right?

Post Reply