2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[LM10]

What should have stopped RedBull from doing the same in 2022? Looking at their massive rate of upgrades, I’d not be surprised they’ve gone over the budget cap again.

[morefirejules08]

So is a lot of other things in the sport. If it was cheating, it would be a clear cut break of the rules with the worst punishments, not a scale of if you go 7.25m over you get a minor, or over you get a major. It would be major regardless.

You use the rule book to your advantage.

It’s outside of the rules, it’s cheating. You can justify any way you wish.

It’s technically not outside the rules though. The rules give an ‘allowance’ or structured penalties for how far you go over. The point you have to question, is spending $7.25m worth a reduction in championship points, or sitting out a stage in next years competition? Is it worth losing say $5m on this years cost cap? Is it worth losing out on a little bit of wind tunnel time?

The penalty isn’t exactly severe really. I mean even if a team was in the major infringement - do you really think the FIA is going to stop them racing for a whole season? Very very unlikely. At most you will get a bit budget knocked off for the current year or a few constructor points lost. The others just seem so implausible.

It’s a bit like cutting a corner or running with 29times… is the risk of doing that and gaining say 0.2 seconds each time worth the risk of a 5 second penalty at the end of your race if you got caught.

If it’s not outside the rules why is there any penalty at all?

[mendis]

If the facts come out and it suggests a clear breach, I don't see how you can defend it that way.
It literally is cheating IF this is the case

Let the facts come out! We live in a world where people are trigger happy and crucify before the facts are established. If FIA establishes that RB has violated rules, then the legal process should follow. Rumors are not facts!

Agree that the investigation’s results need to be published for transparency’s sake. If the allegations are true, I don’t think disqualification from the 2021 and 2022 championships is out of order. Otherwise, the cap is meaningless, and a massive baked-in advantage borne out of violating the cap will spill over for years to come.

Again, you are assuming everything. First things first, FIA didn't came out telling there is breach, so they are perfectly entitled to keep everything confidential. If all their internal investigation points to a breach, they are liable to follow their own code of conduct. Until that happens, all this overzealous drama is just dumb noise. Is it that hard to hold the horses?

[Stu]

Quite right! Assumption is the mother of all ----ups!
There were a number of teams pushing boundaries last year, in different areas. Wait for the published results of the investigation, then discuss…

[Curbstone]

Wow, this topic has really been hijacked by triggerhappy Red Bull critics.

Last year was the first with the budget cap, right? Would anybody really be surprised that there may be some 'errors' or loopholes in the budget cap regulations?

I'd rather just wait for the official findings of the FIA and some more information.

[Just_a_fan]

4 mil too much with Merc totalling red bull cars in Silverstone and Hungary, I would say well done by RB.

Not if other teams that suffered big losses on track didn't do so. Mercedes lost an entire car when Russell swiped Bottas, for example. Others had similarly expensive shunts.

That one wasnt too expensive for Merc. That got Lewis unlapped and a second place. That was one of the best investments of a car.

[Just_a_fan]

I hope we will be ok, however I think it is 'wise' to use a little over budget given the little penalty you seem to get from the minor section. Any team would certainly be wise if they are good with upgrades to use the $7.25m to develop the car further.

Deliberately going over the budget cap is cheating, pure and simple.

So is a lot of other things in the sport. If it was cheating, it would be a clear cut break of the rules with the worst punishments, not a scale of if you go 7.25m over you get a minor, or over you get a major. It would be major regardless.

You use the rule book to your advantage.

Of course it's cheating. If you spend more than allowed then you gain performance that others that follow the rules can't gain. It's no different to drug use in athletics.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Deliberately going over the budget cap is cheating, pure and simple.

So is a lot of other things in the sport. If it was cheating, it would be a clear cut break of the rules with the worst punishments, not a scale of if you go 7.25m over you get a minor, or over you get a major. It would be major regardless.

You use the rule book to your advantage.

Of course it's cheating. If you spend more than allowed then you gain performance that others that follow the rules can't gain. It's no different to drug use in athletics.

First, it needs to be established what accounting criterion get used. Then go from there. The range of penalties that could be imposed is in the rule book but let’s not get ahead of ourselves

[Just_a_fan]

So is a lot of other things in the sport. If it was cheating, it would be a clear cut break of the rules with the worst punishments, not a scale of if you go 7.25m over you get a minor, or over you get a major. It would be major regardless.

You use the rule book to your advantage.

Of course it's cheating. If you spend more than allowed then you gain performance that others that follow the rules can't gain. It's no different to drug use in athletics.

First, it needs to be established what accounting criterion get used. Then go from there. The range of penalties that could be imposed is in the rule book but let’s not get ahead of ourselves

Of course. If the teams are investigated and found to have spent within the limits, then we can all move on.

The point I was arguing was whether competing in a manner outside of the rules is or isn't cheating. It clearly is, by definition.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Of course it's cheating. If you spend more than allowed then you gain performance that others that follow the rules can't gain. It's no different to drug use in athletics.

First, it needs to be established what accounting criterion get used. Then go from there. The range of penalties that could be imposed is in the rule book but let’s not get ahead of ourselves

Of course. If the teams are investigated and found to have spent within the limits, then we can all move on.

The point I was arguing was whether competing in a manner outside of the rules is or isn't cheating. It clearly is, by definition.

You don’t see me arguing against it. But we all know every single team will do what they need to do to gain a competitive edge. Am sure they’ve done the benefit/risk analysis to death

[morefirejules08]

Quite right! Assumption is the mother of all ---!
There were a number of teams pushing boundaries last year, in different areas. Wait for the published results of the investigation, then discuss…

You will never stop people discussing speculation, you would have more success emptying the oceans with a teacup

[BlueCheetah66]

Quite right! Assumption is the mother of all ---!
There were a number of teams pushing boundaries last year, in different areas. Wait for the published results of the investigation, then discuss…

You will never stop people discussing speculation, you would have more success emptying the oceans with a teacup

Thats why I am so disappointed in Ferrari and Mercedes in making this a public matter before it even needs to be one. Let the FIA do their job, rather than try and incite hatred for a situation that 90% of people have no clue on. They are basically trying to influence public opinion just through rumors. If it is proven that there was no breach in cost cap on Red Bull's side, then this campaign from Ferrari and Mercedes is one of the dirtiest of all time

[Stu]

I cannot help but wonder how much mud is being thrown as a deflection tactic. It’s social media 101, chapter 1 - Post-truth; distract with unfacts, allow to simmer…

[Stu]

Quite right! Assumption is the mother of all ---!
There were a number of teams pushing boundaries last year, in different areas. Wait for the published results of the investigation, then discuss…

You will never stop people discussing speculation, you would have more success emptying the oceans with a teacup

Just because it ‘fits’ a desired narrative doesn’t make it the truth. I could speculate endlessly on some topics (and do!), but try to question myself on logic, facts & intent before posting (which is why a TECHNICAL forum is appealing). Ideas and arguments that have enormous holes in either/both logic/fact or have intent to create a myth about some imagined wrong-doing will either shot down or shut down.

Wait for the facts, leave the speculation and rumour-mongering in the noise of Twitter.

[ispano6]

Red Bull could argue that the damage caused by Bottas to Max's and Checo's RB16bs in Hungary and the complete loss of Max's Silverstone chassis forced extra expenses that amounted to $3M worth and unfair to have to shoulder the damage caused by another team.

Horner has already stated that the books came in under the spending cap, but Wolff seems to insist to know that Red Bull is over budget and kissing up to Sulayem. AND he wants last, this, and next year champions won by Red Bull to be in question because of exceeding the cost cap. I expect non of those to come to happen.