2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
MrGapes
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:33 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:56 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:35 pm


I have always felt this way as well but F1 has burned me somewhat. I just don't see how the gaps we saw this year between big 3 and midfield close meaningfully through 2026.

Mclaren will only have 10-15% more WT time than someone like Mercedes and Ferrari. How on earth do you imagine them finding over 1 second in performance relative to the others from that? The timeframe is enormous.
Binotto suggested that Ferrari's extra development time was worth a tenth at best:
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/997846/1/ ... ap-binotto

I struggle to see how Mclaren can close quickly. 10% extra WT is not worth 1 second. It would take 10 years if that extra windtunnel time was worth 1 tenth every year.

As rules mature it takes more and more wind tunnel time to find time is my guess. They start moving things around by MMs, while right now they're still moving things by CMs. Last year they had so many projects going on, with the new regs, they probably cut off work early to finish stuff off in time. There is still alot of big gains to be had in these regs. I mean look at the test floor McLaren introduce, it was a major change. I think a few teams got the budgets wrong and had too much money going into the season, Certainly Ferrari appeared that way.


For me the biggest issue is that they're gonna change the regs again in 2026. If we learned anything from 2022 is the teams that have the best processes (the big three) always win out when new regs are introduced.
As far as I know in 2026 the ice and hybrid positioning will all be on fixed mount points, so it’s not a major disadvantage for customers.

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djos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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MrGapes wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:36 pm
djos wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:08 pm
ScottR267 wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:57 pm
Race mechanic for the team confirming new talent into the team
That's a pretty damming indictment of the MCL36 by a team employee - essentially confirming they didn't understand why the car was so unpredictable!

https://i.imgur.com/Q6OOxTo.jpg
Nowhere in that statement does it say the car was unpredictable.

I’ve watched the car onboards the whole year… the car was not unpredictable, it was just slow..
How much more clearly do you need it spelled out? Not understanding why something happens, means it is not predictable.

Image
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

mwillems
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:54 pm
MrGapes wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:36 pm
djos wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:08 pm


That's a pretty damming indictment of the MCL36 by a team employee - essentially confirming they didn't understand why the car was so unpredictable!

https://i.imgur.com/Q6OOxTo.jpg
Nowhere in that statement does it say the car was unpredictable.

I’ve watched the car onboards the whole year… the car was not unpredictable, it was just slow..
How much more clearly do you need it spelled out? Not understanding why something happens, means it is not predictable.

https://i.imgur.com/WPREMjU.jpg
Things can have complicated patterns that are very predictable... once you see them.

But that statement says nothing about the predictability of the car, just around the knowledge required to improve specific areas.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

geogate
geogate
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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I think he was talking about the talent behind the wheel

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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MrGapes wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:40 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:33 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:56 pm


Binotto suggested that Ferrari's extra development time was worth a tenth at best:
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/997846/1/ ... ap-binotto

I struggle to see how Mclaren can close quickly. 10% extra WT is not worth 1 second. It would take 10 years if that extra windtunnel time was worth 1 tenth every year.

As rules mature it takes more and more wind tunnel time to find time is my guess. They start moving things around by MMs, while right now they're still moving things by CMs. Last year they had so many projects going on, with the new regs, they probably cut off work early to finish stuff off in time. There is still alot of big gains to be had in these regs. I mean look at the test floor McLaren introduce, it was a major change. I think a few teams got the budgets wrong and had too much money going into the season, Certainly Ferrari appeared that way.


For me the biggest issue is that they're gonna change the regs again in 2026. If we learned anything from 2022 is the teams that have the best processes (the big three) always win out when new regs are introduced.
As far as I know in 2026 the ice and hybrid positioning will all be on fixed mount points, so it’s not a major disadvantage for customers.
But once again, the factory team designs the entire power unit around their concept. Look at the exhaust configuration of the new Mercedes. Designed for their aero.

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diffuser
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Location: Montreal

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Mostlyeels wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:19 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:33 pm
For me the biggest issue is that they're gonna change the regs again in 2026.
I knew the PUs will change, but aero regs/formula as well?

MrGapes
MrGapes
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:11 am
MrGapes wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:40 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:33 pm



As rules mature it takes more and more wind tunnel time to find time is my guess. They start moving things around by MMs, while right now they're still moving things by CMs. Last year they had so many projects going on, with the new regs, they probably cut off work early to finish stuff off in time. There is still alot of big gains to be had in these regs. I mean look at the test floor McLaren introduce, it was a major change. I think a few teams got the budgets wrong and had too much money going into the season, Certainly Ferrari appeared that way.


For me the biggest issue is that they're gonna change the regs again in 2026. If we learned anything from 2022 is the teams that have the best processes (the big three) always win out when new regs are introduced.
As far as I know in 2026 the ice and hybrid positioning will all be on fixed mount points, so it’s not a major disadvantage for customers.
But once again, the factory team designs the entire power unit around their concept. Look at the exhaust configuration of the new Mercedes. Designed for their aero.
All the lower components of the 2026 ICE are heavily prescribed and standardized, and mostly dimensionally bounded through legality volumes. A lot of the combustion area (upper section) still has a bit of freedom but that's because of the fuel changes. Obviously even within those constraints there is wiggle room, but its nowhere near what these last years have been.

"The positioning of key PU components is more restrictive in the 2026 PU regulations in order to not lock in long-term advantage's or disadvantages. A range of reference volumes has been defined within each PU elements must lie"

- obviously the FIA recognizes the hybrid system is the selling point... other PU manufacturers don't want to enter if they have to develop and package a new ICE, which current teams have developed for years.

MrGapes
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Image

Good to see the team making the necessary steps.

Mostlyeels
Mostlyeels
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Location: Canberra, Australia

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:52 am
Mostlyeels wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:19 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:33 pm
For me the biggest issue is that they're gonna change the regs again in 2026.
I knew the PUs will change, but aero regs/formula as well?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_contin ... e=emb_logo
Cheers. I had actually read the active aero thread here a while back, but thought it was just wishful thinking, didn't realise it was actually a stated goal of the new regs :)

Ground Effect
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:54 pm
MrGapes wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:36 pm
djos wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:08 pm


That's a pretty damming indictment of the MCL36 by a team employee - essentially confirming they didn't understand why the car was so unpredictable!

https://i.imgur.com/Q6OOxTo.jpg
Nowhere in that statement does it say the car was unpredictable.

I’ve watched the car onboards the whole year… the car was not unpredictable, it was just slow..
How much more clearly do you need it spelled out? Not understanding why something happens, means it is not predictable.

https://i.imgur.com/WPREMjU.jpg
He said they are missing something, he never said the car was unpredictable, not sure why you say he's confirming that. The guy he's replying to made that assumption. He only agreed they are missing something, not necessarily predictability.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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djos
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:12 am
djos wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:54 pm
MrGapes wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:36 pm


Nowhere in that statement does it say the car was unpredictable.

I’ve watched the car onboards the whole year… the car was not unpredictable, it was just slow..
How much more clearly do you need it spelled out? Not understanding why something happens, means it is not predictable.

https://i.imgur.com/WPREMjU.jpg
He said they are missing something, he never said the car was unpredictable, not sure why you say he's confirming that. The guy he's replying to made that assumption. He only agreed they are missing something, not necessarily predictability.
I’m a professional SRE Incident, problem and service level manager (I built my companies IPM department from scratch), finding patterns is what I do, and it’s what engineers do generally. If you Can’t find a pattern to a problem, it’s generally regarded as unpredictable, or at the very least, hard to replicate.

But maybe if some of you guys understood how professionals solve problems, you’d know this:



Ps NOBL9 is one of my vendors (we use them to measure our SaaS application service levels), I don’t work for them.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

MrGapes
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:25 am
Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:12 am
djos wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:54 pm


How much more clearly do you need it spelled out? Not understanding why something happens, means it is not predictable.

https://i.imgur.com/WPREMjU.jpg
He said they are missing something, he never said the car was unpredictable, not sure why you say he's confirming that. The guy he's replying to made that assumption. He only agreed they are missing something, not necessarily predictability.
I’m a professional SRE Incident, problem and service level manager (I built my companies IPM department from scratch), finding patterns is what I do, and it’s what engineers do generally. If you Can’t find a pattern to a problem, it’s generally regarded as unpredictable, or at the very least, hard to replicate.

But maybe if some of you guys understood how professionals solve problems, you’d know this:



Ps NOBL9 is one of my vendors (we use them to measure our SaaS application service levels), I don’t work for them.
I've found the pattern... he was slower... maybe should of drove faster?

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djos
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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MrGapes wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:02 pm
djos wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:25 am
Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:12 am


He said they are missing something, he never said the car was unpredictable, not sure why you say he's confirming that. The guy he's replying to made that assumption. He only agreed they are missing something, not necessarily predictability.
I’m a professional SRE Incident, problem and service level manager (I built my companies IPM department from scratch), finding patterns is what I do, and it’s what engineers do generally. If you Can’t find a pattern to a problem, it’s generally regarded as unpredictable, or at the very least, hard to replicate.

But maybe if some of you guys understood how professionals solve problems, you’d know this:



Ps NOBL9 is one of my vendors (we use them to measure our SaaS application service levels), I don’t work for them.
I've found the pattern... he was slower... maybe should of drove faster?
And yet he’s still won more races for Mclaren than Lando….
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Swed3121
Swed3121
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Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:26 pm

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:20 pm
MrGapes wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:02 pm
djos wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:25 am


I’m a professional SRE Incident, problem and service level manager (I built my companies IPM department from scratch), finding patterns is what I do, and it’s what engineers do generally. If you Can’t find a pattern to a problem, it’s generally regarded as unpredictable, or at the very least, hard to replicate.

But maybe if some of you guys understood how professionals solve problems, you’d know this:



Ps NOBL9 is one of my vendors (we use them to measure our SaaS application service levels), I don’t work for them.
I've found the pattern... he was slower... maybe should of drove faster?
And yet he’s still won more races for Mclaren than Lando….
Aah, that old chestnut. Get over it, look forward to Oscar and hope to god he faster or at least more consistent than Danny ric.

Swed3121
Swed3121
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Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:26 pm

Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Interesting tidbits coming out of Ferrari saying Binotto is not surviving December and Fred Vasseur is the replacement after Seidl declined the position