2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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rifrafs2kees
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Have we not followed this sport long enough to know that visually similar cars do not equate to similar performance? I for one wouldn't lose hope until testing and race 1 regardless of zero or traditional side pod implementation.

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De Jokke
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Mercedes AMG + Hamilton => dreamteam!
If you can't beat'em, call Masi!

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De Jokke
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Shouldn't there be a 2023 thread or will this one be kept?

Russell seems optimistic:
http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... 023_title/
Mercedes AMG + Hamilton => dreamteam!
If you can't beat'em, call Masi!

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/russ ... /10418269/


More odd comments coming from George's mouth...
“You’re going to have a greater impact if you’re going the same speed with a car that weights 800-odd-kgs or over 900kgs at the start of a race, compared to one 15 years ago when they were at 650kg.
How many 15year old cars has George crashed in his time in F1? He made his debut in 2019 when cars weighed 743kg.

2019 743 kg
2020 746 kg
2021 752 kg
2022 795 kg
2023 796kg

Given that F1 cars have become substantially safer over the years, I think he really is talking out of his rear, again. What does he want? A extra 1kg left off the table to make a roll hoop stronger that will stop his head from being dragged across the ground because the 1kg lighter version wasn't safe enough.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:52 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/russ ... /10418269/


More odd comments coming from George's mouth...
“You’re going to have a greater impact if you’re going the same speed with a car that weights 800-odd-kgs or over 900kgs at the start of a race, compared to one 15 years ago when they were at 650kg.
How many 15year old cars has George crashed in his time in F1? He made his debut in 2019 when cars weighed 743kg.

2019 743 kg
2020 746 kg
2021 752 kg
2022 795 kg
2023 796kg

Given that F1 cars have become substantially safer over the years, I think he really is talking out of his rear, again. What does he want? A extra 1kg left off the table to make a roll hoop stronger that will stop his head from being dragged across the ground because the 1kg lighter version wasn't safe enough.
Maybe there's a political lense with which to view this?

They must have realized that RB are struggling to get the weight down due to some inherent vehicle properties so lowering the weight limit would disadvantage them.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:54 pm

Maybe there's a political lense with which to view this?

They must have realized that RB are struggling to get the weight down due to some inherent vehicle properties so lowering the weight limit would disadvantage them.
Who knows. Could well be a possibility. I cant see it though. I'm not sure what the weight reportedly was for the W13, but even if it was at the minimum weight they were still well off given the other teams being overweight.

If safety is such a big concern for George, probably time he didn't race if he is that scared or concerned about safety. As every track worldwide displays. "Motorsport can be dangerous".

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:00 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:54 pm

Maybe there's a political lense with which to view this?

They must have realized that RB are struggling to get the weight down due to some inherent vehicle properties so lowering the weight limit would disadvantage them.
Who knows. Could well be a possibility. I cant see it though. I'm not sure what the weight reportedly was for the W13, but even if it was at the minimum weight they were still well off given the other teams being overweight.

If safety is such a big concern for George, probably time he didn't race if he is that scared or concerned about safety. As every track worldwide displays. "Motorsport can be dangerous".
I think the latter point is needlessly inconsiderate. A driver can be concerned with safety so long as there are legitimate intentions behind the concern....I've long wondered why cars have blind spot monitors and F1 cars do not. To leave the Strolls of the world to their own devices in an F1 car is reckless.

But to get back to the point, the problem is as you initially pointed out. There is limited critical analysis on George's part with regards to how some of the additional weight, has increased safety. Some of this weight is due to improved energy absorbing structures. The crash test requirements go up and so does weight. This is a net benefit.

So therefore I can only presume that this is deliberate. We all know what happens when a Mercedes driver yells from the rooftops about "safety".

So that's why I think it's political. The must think that this will hurt the other teams more than themselves. At one point it was mentioned that Mercedes eschewed a rear suspension design due to weight. A well known rival team chose this design. If weight requirement goes down, said rival might struggle to meet the min weight whereas Mercedes may figure they have more margin.

GR is not an idiot. Far from it. GR is probably the most calculating driver of his generation. If he is suggesting a regs change, then it's because it benefits Mercedes. There's no way GR would propose to lower the minimum weight if his team could not meet that minimum weight.

jordanb
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:52 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/russ ... /10418269/


More odd comments coming from George's mouth...
“You’re going to have a greater impact if you’re going the same speed with a car that weights 800-odd-kgs or over 900kgs at the start of a race, compared to one 15 years ago when they were at 650kg.
How many 15year old cars has George crashed in his time in F1? He made his debut in 2019 when cars weighed 743kg.

2019 743 kg
2020 746 kg
2021 752 kg
2022 795 kg
2023 796kg

Given that F1 cars have become substantially safer over the years, I think he really is talking out of his rear, again. What does he want? A extra 1kg left off the table to make a roll hoop stronger that will stop his head from being dragged across the ground because the 1kg lighter version wasn't safe enough.
The very reason why the weight has increased in recent times is for safety. Maybe George needs to read through regulations and the reasons behind some of the changes. Halo and revised chassis crash tests mandated weight increase in the car. If George drives the previous generation cars that he is referring to, even once, he would quit F1 for how relatively unsafe those are in comparison to current cars.

I am not a big fan of these heavy, lethargic trucks that we call F1 cars. But I sense George has an agenda that he is driving. He has established himself as a PR mouthpiece for driving home Mercedes advantage in his capacity as GPDA leader. So his comments should be taken with a pinch of Salt.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Worst thing is people higher up in F1 actually believe him.

To be fair, I think the GPDA should be led by a retired driver, rather than a driver at a team with an agenda to get the rules changed. Seb would be a perfect fit for that now that he's retired - if he still wants to be a small part of F1 and its future.

None of us are fans of the big heavy numb F1 cars, but I would far rather crash a F1 car at 100mph than a ordinary road car.

the EDGE
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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What George is stating is basic science

Force = mass x speed

With the exception of the lack of Halo, cars from 15 years ago were extremely safe, and this was proved by the numerous huge accidents that occurred, where nobody was harmed

I’ve always said what George has said, it’s a vicious circle, basically, the heavy the cars, the stronger you have to make them, and as most of the weight has come from the hybrid PU, most of the rest of the weight increase (Halo excluded) has been needed to account for this

NA engine cars did not fail in the way we have seen recently, in the crashes such as Zhou’s

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:39 pm
What George is stating is basic science

Force = mass x speed

With the exception of the lack of Halo, cars from 15 years ago were extremely safe, and this was proved by the numerous huge accidents that occurred, where nobody was harmed
There could be a weight reduction by simply removing the front, rear, and side impact structures. :?
but surely you can see the fallacy in such thinking.

Force isn't the issue here. It's the amount of energy which can be absorbed by the impact structures. The F1 cars today are passing crash test that cars from 10-15 years ago could not pass. Crash test is the observable metric, not "mass".

You may observe the same phenomenon in the passenger vehicle industry. Safety is not correlated with weight. Cars today are much heavier than cars of the past yet they are scoring higher in all passenger vehicle crash test than the cars of the past. As an aside, a 2000Kg Tesla Model S, is safer for its occupants than a 1000Kg Mazda Miata.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:39 pm
What George is stating is basic science

Force = mass x speed

With the exception of the lack of Halo, cars from 15 years ago were extremely safe, and this was proved by the numerous huge accidents that occurred, where nobody was harmed

I’ve always said what George has said, it’s a vicious circle, basically, the heavy the cars, the stronger you have to make them, and as most of the weight has come from the hybrid PU, most of the rest of the weight increase (Halo excluded) has been needed to account for this

NA engine cars did not fail in the way we have seen recently, in the crashes such as Zhou’s
Cant really argue with physics. But would you rather hit a steel armco barrier in something like a caterham or westfield or a 44tonne artic lorry? The scale of weight vs how hard the crash hurts isnt relevant.

For example would you rather crash a 1960's F1 car into a wall at 100mph or a 2022 F1 car into a barrier at the same speed? Probably 2-3 times as heavy as the 1960's version, but I bet its 100x more safer if you hit the barrier at 100mph for certain.

mrluke
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I think you are making a strawman here.

George isn't saying scrap the safety devices, he's saying the cars now are too heavy.

Why can we work on getting them back down to 700kg without making them any less safe?

We've all said for a long time they are too big and too heavy.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mrluke wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:18 pm
I think you are making a strawman here.

George isn't saying scrap the safety devices, he's saying the cars now are too heavy.

Why can we work on getting them back down to 700kg without making them any less safe?

We've all said for a long time they are too big and too heavy.
George is saying that because they are heavier they get the worse the impact is if you crash them. IE his comparison to crashing a bus and a Smart car. Totally wrong on so many levels.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mrluke wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:18 pm
I think you are making a strawman here.

George isn't saying scrap the safety devices, he's saying the cars now are too heavy.

Why can we work on getting them back down to 700kg without making them any less safe?

We've all said for a long time they are too big and too heavy.
Did you read the article?
“You’re going to have a greater impact if you’re going the same speed with a car that weights 800-odd-kgs or over 900kgs at the start of a race, compared to one 15 years ago when they were at 650kg.
George argued that a heavier car is less safe.

Therefore I propose we simply remove the impact structures to reduce the weight.

The purpose of said proposal is to point out the fallacy in thinking that weight is correlated with safety.

The cars today are passing more difficult crash test than 10-15 years ago. What's he complaining about then?