2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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e30ernest
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I am reading this as if you have 2 900kg cars hitting each other, the forces would be much more than 2 650kg cars. In that case, he has a point.

If you work towards a lower minimum weight, the amount of mass required for the safety equipment would also be lower even if you are required to pass the same kind of test (mass is lower so force is too). They are not mutually exclusive.

mrluke
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:16 pm
mrluke wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:18 pm
I think you are making a strawman here.

George isn't saying scrap the safety devices, he's saying the cars now are too heavy.

Why can we work on getting them back down to 700kg without making them any less safe?

We've all said for a long time they are too big and too heavy.
Did you read the article?
“You’re going to have a greater impact if you’re going the same speed with a car that weights 800-odd-kgs or over 900kgs at the start of a race, compared to one 15 years ago when they were at 650kg.
George argued that a heavier car is less safe.

Therefore I propose we simply remove the impact structures to reduce the weight.

The purpose of said proposal is to point out the fallacy in thinking that weight is correlated with safety.

The cars today are passing more difficult crash test than 10-15 years ago. What's he complaining about then?
a 900kg car in a crash is a bigger impact than a 650kg one, if they both impact at the same speed.

If we're going to be obtuse then we might as well take the tyres off to reduce weight, its not going to make the cars any safer and its clearly not what George is asking for.

I'm sure if F1 really wanted to they could get down to 650kg cars and still pass the crash tests. I dont see why this is an unreasonable thing to ask for.

George will be doing it for a self serving reason undoubtedly, but we have been asking for smaller lighter cars for years so what are you complaining about?

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mrluke wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:36 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:16 pm
mrluke wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:18 pm
I think you are making a strawman here.

George isn't saying scrap the safety devices, he's saying the cars now are too heavy.

Why can we work on getting them back down to 700kg without making them any less safe?

We've all said for a long time they are too big and too heavy.
Did you read the article?
“You’re going to have a greater impact if you’re going the same speed with a car that weights 800-odd-kgs or over 900kgs at the start of a race, compared to one 15 years ago when they were at 650kg.
George argued that a heavier car is less safe.

Therefore I propose we simply remove the impact structures to reduce the weight.

The purpose of said proposal is to point out the fallacy in thinking that weight is correlated with safety.

The cars today are passing more difficult crash test than 10-15 years ago. What's he complaining about then?
a 900kg car in a crash is a bigger impact than a 650kg one, if they both impact at the same speed.

If we're going to be obtuse then we might as well take the tyres off to reduce weight, its not going to make the cars any safer and its clearly not what George is asking for.

I'm sure if F1 really wanted to they could get down to 650kg cars and still pass the crash tests. I dont see why this is an unreasonable thing to ask for.

George will be doing it for a self serving reason undoubtedly, but we have been asking for smaller lighter cars for years so what are you complaining about?
Perhaps you should speak for yourself? You don't know what I want and my personal opinion on weight isn't relevant to the topic.

If George feels that weight is making the cars less safe, then ask for improved crash testing requirements? What of the last 1-2 years suggest safety is decreasing? To simply complain that weight alone is making the cars unsafe lacks critical thinking.

A 2000Kg Tesla Model S scores higher in crash test than a 1000Kg Mazda Miata because safety is only loosely correlated with weight.

These cars will always be hybrids. There isn't going to be a 650kg F1 car anymore. If this is just a backhanded way of complaining about the promotion of technologies that the car manufacturers asked for, in favor or N/A engines, then it looks a bit like "old man yelling at a cloud". The reason we have heavy hybrid PUs is because your team's manufacturer sponsor asked for it. So stop complaining to the FIA, and go yell at Olaf and the business he runs. This is the PU that Mercedes asked for.

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Stu
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Not for the thing it is hitting (which is the other side of the coin). Track (spectator/marshal) safety is also affected by the mass of the cars.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Stu wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:58 pm
Not for the thing it is hitting (which is the other side of the coin). Track (spectator/marshal) safety is also affected by the mass of the cars.
To how much mass hitting a person at 100mph isn’t going to cause serious injury or kill a Marshall spectator though?

You have a 30-40kg wheel flying down the road and over a barrier into the crowd you’d expect someone to end up dead, unless they were very lucky.

Therefore I think your point is mute at the weight of mass causing more harm to spectators or track Marshalls.

Seems a lot of people on here would much rather crash a old 650kg F1 than a modern car weighing 750kg+.

Dare bet if you asked 100peoplenwhixhbcsr they would rather have a crash in, a old 1960s car or say a W12 Mercedes… I wonder how many would opt for the older car.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Stu wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:58 pm
Not for the thing it is hitting (which is the other side of the coin). Track (spectator/marshal) safety is also affected by the mass of the cars.
This is a fair point, but the energy required to be absorbed in a collision with a car or spectator is much more sensitive to velocity, than it is to mass since the energy follows the square of velocity and only the first power of mass.

The biggest factor that would improve safety is simply slowing the cars down and this is even easier and more cost effective than trying to make the current 800kg cars drop 150kg.

If GR is very serious about safety, that is what one should propose however we've seen in the last year that safety is secondary to politics, so I can only gather than whatever the agenda is here, it has political origins.

f1jcw
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:22 pm

If GR is very serious about safety, that is what one should propose however we've seen in the last year that safety is secondary to politics, so I can only gather than whatever the agenda is here, it has political origins.
Not everything has to be looked at the microscope of "politics" or "agenda", stop being paranoid.

As has been pointed out, he’s comments bear out in physics.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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They dont though thats the problem.

His comments, or physics dont take into account any crumple zones that have been designed into the car. If it was a truly solid mass, that would be different, but its not.

You get hit with a 30kg wheel bouncing down the road at 100mph your still going to end up dead - same as if a 800kg car hit you at 100mph. So the weight/mass or whatever you want to call it, is irrelevant if it hits you.

What would you rather crash at 50mph? A 800kg citroen C1, or a 2000kg Audi Q7 for example?

f1jcw
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:53 pm
They dont though thats the problem.

His comments, or physics dont take into account any crumple zones that have been designed into the car. If it was a truly solid mass, that would be different, but its not.

You get hit with a 30kg wheel bouncing down the road at 100mph your still going to end up dead - same as if a 800kg car hit you at 100mph. So the weight/mass or whatever you want to call it, is irrelevant if it hits you.

What would you rather crash at 50mph? A 800kg citroen C1, or a 2000kg Audi Q7 for example?
What about the C1 crashing against a Q7

This is the danger of bigger and heavier cars on the road, they feel invincible and can bully others off the road.

C1 vs C1, fine.
Q7 vs Q7, still going to get significant damage.

So if they get bigger then the protection needs to get bigger and heavier, it’s a self defeating circle

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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f1jcw wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:58 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:53 pm
They dont though thats the problem.

His comments, or physics dont take into account any crumple zones that have been designed into the car. If it was a truly solid mass, that would be different, but its not.

You get hit with a 30kg wheel bouncing down the road at 100mph your still going to end up dead - same as if a 800kg car hit you at 100mph. So the weight/mass or whatever you want to call it, is irrelevant if it hits you.

What would you rather crash at 50mph? A 800kg citroen C1, or a 2000kg Audi Q7 for example?
What about the C1 crashing against a Q7

This is the danger of bigger and heavier cars on the road, they feel invincible and can bully others off the road.

C1 vs C1, fine.
Q7 vs Q7, still going to get significant damage.

So if they get bigger then the protection needs to get bigger and heavier, it’s a self defeating circle
If you crashed into a steel track barrier at 50 or even 70mph, which would you rather crash in?

By your theory, a 44-tonne HGV should have the best protection of any car on the road. But what crumple zones do you see in a HGV?

mrluke
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I think we're all agreed that George's statement is likely politically motivated.

However its not uncommon for fans to lambast the size and weight of the current cars.

This isn't an attack on the modern PU / hybrid / battery / electric / whatever. Its simply the continued growth in size and mass of the cars.

Image

I understand the weight increased for the new PUs, but why can FIA not start pushing the weight limits and size limits down over the coming seasons? We can keep or even increase the safety criteria / tests and end up with lighter cars, that take less energy into crashes, require less run off area and reduce they amount of track taken up by each car.

FWIW I level the same complaint at road cars, there's an obsession on speed limits but in the meantime car weights have gone from 1t to 2t or even more.

Heavier cars use more of the worlds resources to make, more to maintain (tyres/ brakes etc), more energy to fuel and are more dangerous for whatever they crash into.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mrluke wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:36 pm
I think we're all agreed that George's statement is likely politically motivated.

However its not uncommon for fans to lambast the size and weight of the current cars.

This isn't an attack on the modern PU / hybrid / battery / electric / whatever. Its simply the continued growth in size and mass of the cars.

https://preview.redd.it/sd7cn0xgyx941.p ... b1116c4c87

I understand the weight increased for the new PUs, but why can FIA not start pushing the weight limits and size limits down over the coming seasons? We can keep or even increase the safety criteria / tests and end up with lighter cars, that take less energy into crashes, require less run off area and reduce they amount of track taken up by each car.

FWIW I level the same complaint at road cars, there's an obsession on speed limits but in the meantime car weights have gone from 1t to 2t or even more.

Heavier cars use more of the worlds resources to make, more to maintain (tyres/ brakes etc), more energy to fuel and are more dangerous for whatever they crash into.
I'm unsure what kind of answer you are looking for.

Teams struggled to reach 800kg this season. How do you expect them to go 50-100kg lower.

You keep saying the FIA should gut the weight limit, but where is this going to come from if two of the biggest and most skillful teams in the sport (RB, Merc) couldn't even get to 800kg in 2022.


Potential opportunities with sizeable contributions to weight would lie in
1) Remove the hybrid system (not going to happen, ever)
2) Go back to smaller wheels (18" was selected because the tires were closer to road tires)
3) Remove the Halo ( :? )
4) Reduce the length and width of the cars (this reduces the crumple zones)
5) Use more expensive, and exotic materials (this cost more money)

So what answer are you looking for besides an elusive magic wand that solves all the problems better than Mercedes or Red Bull can?

mrluke
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:18 pm
mrluke wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:36 pm
I think we're all agreed that George's statement is likely politically motivated.

However its not uncommon for fans to lambast the size and weight of the current cars.

This isn't an attack on the modern PU / hybrid / battery / electric / whatever. Its simply the continued growth in size and mass of the cars.

https://preview.redd.it/sd7cn0xgyx941.p ... b1116c4c87

I understand the weight increased for the new PUs, but why can FIA not start pushing the weight limits and size limits down over the coming seasons? We can keep or even increase the safety criteria / tests and end up with lighter cars, that take less energy into crashes, require less run off area and reduce they amount of track taken up by each car.

FWIW I level the same complaint at road cars, there's an obsession on speed limits but in the meantime car weights have gone from 1t to 2t or even more.

Heavier cars use more of the worlds resources to make, more to maintain (tyres/ brakes etc), more energy to fuel and are more dangerous for whatever they crash into.
I'm unsure what kind of answer you are looking for.

Teams struggled to reach 800kg this season. How do you expect them to go 50-100kg lower.

You keep saying the FIA should gut the weight limit, but where is this going to come from if two of the biggest and most skillful teams in the sport (RB, Merc) couldn't even get to 800kg in 2022.


Potential opportunities with sizeable contributions to weight would lie in
1) Remove the hybrid system (not going to happen, ever)
2) Go back to smaller wheels (18" was selected because the tires were closer to road tires)
3) Remove the Halo ( :? )
4) Reduce the length and width of the cars (this reduces the crumple zones)
5) Use more expensive, and exotic materials (this cost more money)

So what answer are you looking for besides an elusive magic wand that solves all the problems better than Mercedes or Red Bull can?
1. Over time, increase PU contribution from electric and reduce fuel flow on PU, that'll continue to deliver weight savings.
2. They'll need to stay 18", maybe multiple suppliers would result in a lighter tyre, lighter vehicle mass could also reduce tyre width requirements or tyre widths could be reduce over time.
3. Halo is here to stay.
4. Reduce max length by 1m. Maybe 250mm every few years. LMP1 cars are about 1m shorter than current F1 cars and I believe pass the same crash tests. F1 want the largest floor area they can for aero benefits.
5. Majority of the cost of the car is in the R&D not in the actual material used in the parts. Spend some more money on having it lighter, why not.

Why should the minimum weight be set on what all the cars currently weigh? Why not give a team the option to make a lighter car for a performance benefit that maybe has a slightly smaller battery or whatever.

Maybe none of the cars hit the minimum weight, is that an issue? They all have (practically) the same spending ability now.

basti313
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Stu wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:58 pm
Not for the thing it is hitting (which is the other side of the coin). Track (spectator/marshal) safety is also affected by the mass of the cars.
Do you have safety concerns regarding spectator/marshal safety? Did George really speak about this?
When was the last incident with a spectator or marshal, how would it have ended with a lighter car?
f1jcw wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:58 pm
C1 vs C1, fine.
Q7 vs Q7, still going to get significant damage.

So if they get bigger then the protection needs to get bigger and heavier, it’s a self defeating circle
Sorry, but nonsense.
The core thing to protect by heavy passive safety is the driver, especially in F1. If they add weight to make the car more save this is simply positive and not negative in any way.
And again: For the driver it does not play any role if the car has 100kg more or less when it hits the barrier, so no idea what George is actually talking about. Even in contrast if you hit the barrier with more weight the barrier bends more, so less g for the driver.
mrluke wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:36 pm


This isn't an attack on the modern PU / hybrid / battery / electric / whatever. Its simply the continued growth in size and mass of the cars.
If you look at your own picture, the thing that was growing es the engine bay. If you line up the cars at the front wing, the length increase until the driver is marginal and mostly safety related.
f1jcw wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:35 pm

Not everything has to be looked at the microscope of "politics" or "agenda", stop being paranoid.
No need to be paranoid, politics is F1 and F1 is politics. George is good at this.

A lower weight limit would strongly help Merc, maybe also the other two top teams. But Merc seemed to be the only top team close to the weight limit after their US update on the car. Maybe the only one because RedBull did not care anymore, but still...Merc was the one if anyone.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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organic
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Seems that Vowles is off to Williams to become Team Principal over there. Who will replace him as head of strategy?

https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/93701e ... -principal