2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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RonMexico
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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jordanb wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:14 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:30 pm
I know it's wishful thinking (in the case of the 2023 scenario) but indulge me and say if that is pure coincidence or not the following F1 history:

1. The 2006 F1 championship vs. the 2021 one

In 2006 - ALO (the young pretender) at Renault and SCH (the old established champion) in a Ferrari was fiercely battling, with the former having the upper hand in the first part of the season due to his car`s being faster. Then in the second part, Ferrari has the car speed superiority and there is an incredible recovery from the latter driver until his engine blows in the almost last race (in fact it was the penultimate race at Suzuka). So the end of the championship was down to a mechanical reason rather than a sports one.

In 2021 - the same story between a young gun - VER in an RB car is battling hard with HAM, an established champion who drives a car which was winning the last championships (4 in Ferrari`s case and 7 in Merc`s case). In the first part, RB's car is faster, then after Silverstone Merc`s car has the edge and HAM gets momentum and recovers the points lost until the last race when the former driver wins due to a discretional race director's decision rather than in a sportive manner.

2. The 2005 F1 championship vs. the 2022 one

In 2005 - ALO in the same Renault car is battling with RAI in a faster McLaren car and also with SCH who was running the same Ferrari car. But this time FIA was enforcing the one-tyre for the entire race rule in order to stop Ferrar`s strake of championship wins. Thus the Renault and McLaren cars which were running on Michelin tyres has the upper hand over the struggling Ferrari car running on Bridgestone tyres. In the first part of the season, RAI has a superior car and take advantage but due to poor reliability loses the championship to ALO, with a struggling SCH who won just a single race - the infamous Indianapolis race.

In 2022 - there are major car regulation changes (maybe the biggest one in F1 history) and LEC (aka RAI) in a Ferrari car (aka McLaren of 2005) has a faster car in the first part of the season than VER (aka ALO) RB car (aka Renault 2005) who takes advantage and win easily the championship from both poor Ferrari`s car reliability but also from the car updates that were brought of the second part of the season. HAM is struggling with a Merc car that has many issues due to the new regs and is ending with a distant 6th place in the WDC.

3. The 2004 F1 championship vs. the 2023 one

In 2004 - there was a total domination season for the Ferrari car and SCH driver superiority with a distant 3rd Renault finishing in WCC and a 4th place for ALO ...

Now 2023 could be the same as in 2004, this time around both HAM & W14 has a "tour de force" season with VER/RB car needing to recognize that they are now the 3rd force in the championship after LEC & Ferrari car.

Therefore, for the sake of the fun feel free to fill in the blanks on what you think it`ll happen :) ...
The correct order of comparison is, 2004 Ferrari is the 2020 Mercedes. 2006 Ferrari is the 2021 Mercedes. 2005 Ferrari is 2022 Mercedes. Both had rule changes.

Just one year mixed in between. If anything, Mercedes can expect a 2006 in 2023 with regards to second year of new rules. Where after having flopped in the first year, they can expect recovery like Ferrari in 2006.

Historically, a car that got it right in a new set of regulations, retains the advantage for another season or two. In exceptional circumstances, much longer. BrawnGP was an outlier due it it's circumstances. But there was Red Bull, which although didn't win in 2009, but went on to build on the rule changes advantage.

F2004 Ferrari had an evolutionary basis, much like W11. 2004 was the last year of V10s. Similar was 2020 which should have been the last year of a rule set. But pandemic postponed the 2021 to 2022. A car that was regarded as the best to have ever been designed up until that point (F2004 and W11), lost the dominant edge in the following year. Add RB9 to that list as it was the last of that regulatory era and like those other two, was a dominant beast.
2005 was the last year of the V10s and 2006 was the first of the V8 cars. The Aero rules remained relatively stable despite the engine change.

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Shrieker
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Venturiation wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:07 pm

Mercedes started in 2022 with an unusual car. Were you surprised that you were the only ones who chose this concept?

Elliott: Not really. We were surprised that no one else found this loophole. If you have gone this way, it is very difficult to copy something else.

What loophole is he referring to ?

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Venturiation
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Shrieker wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:41 pm
Venturiation wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:07 pm

Mercedes started in 2022 with an unusual car. Were you surprised that you were the only ones who chose this concept?

Elliott: Not really. We were surprised that no one else found this loophole. If you have gone this way, it is very difficult to copy something else.

What loophole is he referring to ?

🤔
Sidepods and crash structure wing

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ringo
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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It's vindicating to see that the sidepods had nothing to do with the issues.
A lot of arguments were made by socalled experts about sidepods that did not hold any merrit.
The issues were floor and how suspension worked with it.
Anyhow it's good to see that Merc seem to have turned over every stone regarding the issues.
Can Hamilton win another championship if he has a car that is more usable that plays to his strengths in the corners and under braking?

As for James going to Williams. This is good for merc. Both teams can work together to test components or for strategical positioning. There may even be sharing of operational knowledge if permited by the rules.
For Sure!!

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:44 pm
It's vindicating to see that the sidepods had nothing to do with the issues.
A lot of arguments were made by socalled experts about sidepods that did not hold any merrit.
The issues were floor and how suspension worked with it.
Anyhow it's good to see that Merc seem to have turned over every stone regarding the issues.
Can Hamilton win another championship if he has a car that is more usable that plays to his strengths in the corners and under braking?

As for James going to Williams. This is good for merc. Both teams can work together to test components or for strategical positioning. There may even be sharing of operational knowledge if permited by the rules.
We will see come FP1 what concept Merc chose for this year. If they go for normal side pods, then all the interviews from team personelle were smoke and mirrors.

As others have said, they still had porpoising in Dubai so it could show that they haven't actually got to the bottom of their problems.

If they change suspension, they have to hope it will work and prevent/control the bouncing.

I really cant see the parts getting 'tested' or shared between the teams - massively against the rules and if they were caught sharing CFD or designs - then it wouldn't end very well.

As for strategically positioning cars....Williams never have or ever will in 2023, gift a hand to be strategic against the other top teams....unless of course Merc drop even further down the field.

Venturiation
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:55 pm
ringo wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:44 pm
It's vindicating to see that the sidepods had nothing to do with the issues.
A lot of arguments were made by socalled experts about sidepods that did not hold any merrit.
The issues were floor and how suspension worked with it.
Anyhow it's good to see that Merc seem to have turned over every stone regarding the issues.
Can Hamilton win another championship if he has a car that is more usable that plays to his strengths in the corners and under braking?

As for James going to Williams. This is good for merc. Both teams can work together to test components or for strategical positioning. There may even be sharing of operational knowledge if permited by the rules.
We will see come FP1 what concept Merc chose for this year. If they go for normal side pods, then all the interviews from team personelle were smoke and mirrors.

As others have said, they still had porpoising in Dubai so it could show that they haven't actually got to the bottom of their problems.

If they change suspension, they have to hope it will work and prevent/control the bouncing.

I really cant see the parts getting 'tested' or shared between the teams - massively against the rules and if they were caught sharing CFD or designs - then it wouldn't end very well.

As for strategically positioning cars....Williams never have or ever will in 2023, gift a hand to be strategic against the other top teams....unless of course Merc drop even further down the field.

Why do you keep insisting on porpoising in dubai
If they built new suspensions of course they are not going to put it on the W13,
The new suspension will need a new design and to adapt everything around it
Porpoising isn’t just an on off switch

And sidepods won’t be exactly the same, they have 1 year of data, now they are going to look where to improve and how can they modify them

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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A car doesn't work in pieces. It functions in whole. It's impossible to single out the sidepods. The problem is very integrated and complex.

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atanatizante
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:39 pm
Maybe swap RB with Ferrari and might be closer mixed.

I really cant see RB becoming 3rd best after carrying over much of their car from 2022. That would be like a .600-.750 loss for the RB, so even if that was split between the two thats a .350 loss and gain for each time, and then you have 2 cars that are equally matched.
Last but not least, ALO (who was supposed to be the next SCH or at least the only driver beating him until he would retire) did win 2 consecutive WDC and in 2007 wasn't any major rule change, as I am aware of...
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ringo
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I suspect the sidepods will be the same concept but refined.
There were many flow conditioners upstream of the radiator openings and the w13 did have cooling issues.
There engineers will of course address some of the unrefined aspects of the sidepods.
But the other teams are not standing still either. Ferrari i am sure will try to get more downforce and reduced drag.

Are there any changes with the cfd tools and testing equipment by the way?
It seems the issues with the w13 were not spotted partly because of limitations with testing tools. The team didnt seem to be able to do much transient testing or checks.
For Sure!!

Venturiation
Venturiation
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:25 am
I suspect the sidepods will be the same concept but refined.
There were many flow conditioners upstream of the radiator openings and the w13 did have cooling issues.
There engineers will of course address some of the unrefined aspects of the sidepods.
But the other teams are not standing still either. Ferrari i am sure will try to get more downforce and reduced drag.

Are there any changes with the cfd tools and testing equipment by the way?
It seems the issues with the w13 were not spotted partly because of limitations with testing tools. The team didnt seem to be able to do much transient testing or checks.
Shovlin said that they spent all the year gathering data and adapting the tools to simulate porpoising and bouncing and now they have a better predictability of the car

Is there a 2023 thread ? i see for other teams but not M

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atanatizante
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:44 pm

...

As for James going to Williams. This is good for merc. Both teams can work together to test components or for strategic positioning. There may even be sharing of operational knowledge if permitted by the rules.
Glad that they finally figure out something that RB were doing for ages :mrgreen:
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

jordanb
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:14 pm
ringo wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:44 pm

...

As for James going to Williams. This is good for merc. Both teams can work together to test components or for strategic positioning. There may even be sharing of operational knowledge if permitted by the rules.
Glad that they finally figure out something that RB were doing for ages :mrgreen:
Williams was always a B team for Mercedes. They have tested engine components on Williams, ran their junior drivers and now they have provided 2nd team principal. There were even rumours early last year about Williams' side pods were a test design for Mercedes. So I guess they have been doing it already.

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atanatizante
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:55 pm

...

As others have said, they still had porpoising in Dubai so it could show that they haven't actually got to the bottom of their problems.

...
Had I`m not wrong, Shovlin said something after the race in Abu Dhabi implying that the car was still bouncing (particularly in qualy trim) coz they were forced to run it at a sub-optimal floor ride height due to the W13 rear suspension design, which we all know by now it was travel limited ...

chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:55 pm

If they change the suspension, they have to hope it will work and prevent/control the bouncing.

...
In that respect, I think they will first check the new floor and suspension with a little help from a modified W13 car on the 15th of February in the Silverstone showdown, both for the need for a reality check and also for hiding the real W14 bodywork from other teams, something that RB surely will do in their first car appearance ...
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

Venturiation
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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In that respect, I think they will first check the new floor and suspension with a little help from a modified W13 car on the 15th of February in the Silverstone showdown, both for the need for a reality check and also for hiding the real W14 bodywork from other teams, something that RB surely will do in their first car appearance ...
[/quote]


No way the use the W13 wouldn’t that be more expensive with the budget cap? Mounting a suspension on last year car thta won’t be compatible with W14

They have to run the real car and see if the correlation is there or not

Venturiation
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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And when is the 2023 team thread going to be open? All the other teams have it