HERS for F1

[J-Raid]

I'm aware there is a KERS thread partially covering HERS, but I think it's not enough, I want to throw some new ideas.

First, I'll post some info of BMW's HERS protype:
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20060217/FREE/60213002

and

At around 220 pounds, the Turbosteamer will have to shed some weight before it meets BMW’s weight-distribution standards, but expect to see a version on the road within the next decade. The TurboSteamer has two separate components: a high-temperature loop [red] heated by the exhaust system and a low-temperature loop [blue] heated by engine coolant. The circuits follow different paths but feed power into the same place. In the high-temperature loop, an electric pump circulates distilled water. First stop: a steam generator that vaporizes the water. A superheater further heats the steam to above 1,000˚F. From there, steam spins a piston-driven expander, which powers a belt drive that helps turn the crankshaft. Then, the steam hits a condenser, which cools it back down to a liquid state.

The low-temperature loop—which assists the high-temperature loop—works similarly but uses ethanol because it turns into steam at just 173˚. Its pump drives the ethanol through a steam generator heated by engine coolant (the ethanol actually helps cool the engine) and then into a second steam generator that it shares with the primary circuit. Steam exits at about 300˚ and flows into its own expander, which adds power via a belt drive to that of the high-temperature expander. On exiting, the ethanol flows through the car’s radiator, which cools it back down to liquid.

Now I'm thinking of a better way to implement it into F1. The main focus would be only only making use of both exahust and other heat energies from the engine, but also reducing the sidepod air inlets.

One way for all this I came up with would be using just a single circuit, with multiple variations. One of them would consist of the following, using the cooling water circuit and extending it, the process would be: the hot water (at a bit over 100ºC) after cooling the engine goes through a heat exchanger receiving some (not much though) heat from the hot oil of the lurbication (which is around 120ºC); then continues and either goes through an expander or a turbine or continues directly to the exahusts. Once in the exhust, similar to the BMW device, it goes through another heat exchanger getting quite a lot of heat from the exhausts. If it had previously gone through turbine/expander, then it would get more heat, but would be more complex and heavy. After all this it goes through the main turbine or expander and then through a small radiator (smaller than current ones) to further reduce the temperature, so that it can cool properly the engine.

Now, the following questions arise:
-Does anyone know the water and oil flow figures? I do know the heat loses ones, from this article:http://www.f1technical.net/features/250 but flow ones as well would help.
-Would it be to use just the main expander/turbine, or two, bearing in mind taht it is for F1 application, with weight being so important?
-would it be better to run with lower pressure, let the water become steam (in the first stage) and use a turbine, or better a expander ala BMW? I'm more keen for turbine, ala turbocharger's...
-What would you do with the kinetic energy from the turbine/expander, attach it to the engine via mechanical link ala BMW, convert it into electricity and store it in the flywheel/batteries of the KERS device or convert it into pressure like a turbo(only injecting that pressure to the engine when necesary)?

Anything else I'm missing?
Any proposals?

[WhiteBlue]

I have allways thought that one or more rotary screw expanders similar to the rotary compressor design would be a cost/weight effective design if it is molded from high performance ceramics and housed in a light weight case, which could perhaps be integrated with the engine.

[PlatinumZealot]

The water coming from the engine is used to preheat the water that is going into the boiler (the exhaust heat exchanger). This is the best way to do it thermodynamically. It is more efficient.

You only want superheated steam in the turbine nothing else. Condensation is not good inside the turbines. The preheating will allow more of the energy from the exhaust to go into getting the steam to a high temperature, it will need to be about 500F 260C, Pressure needs to be high too so their needs to a feed water pump. This can be a secondary water pump.. these pumps Draw alot of energy too. But the power gain should overcome it.

The BMW version looks very optimized.. I try but I can't see anyway to improve it. All the ways that I know to increase efficiency is already on the BMW turbo-steamer diagram.

[PlatinumZealot]

Oh, another thing.. Those exhaust pipe are going to look very interesting..

The primary heat transfere is radiation so the designers might choose a material that has a better absorption.

There also has to be control system in place so that the water in the boiler tubes don't experience de-nucleate boiling.

[flynfrog]

why not super heat the fuel before injection. Less energy needed to light off the fuel much more effective combustion less wasted heat. no need for a boiler or a steam turbine

[Scotracer]

why not super heat the fuel before injection. Less energy needed to light off the fuel much more effective combustion less wasted heat. no need for a boiler or a steam turbine

Actually, for efficiency of an otto cycle you want combustants to be as cold as possible.

[flynfrog]

why not super heat the fuel before injection. Less energy needed to light off the fuel much more effective combustion less wasted heat. no need for a boiler or a steam turbine

Actually, for efficiency of an otto cycle you want combustants to be as cold as possible.

incorrect. you want them to be as dense as possible. but heating the fuel after the one way valve you get a big boost in cylinder pressure and less energy needed to light it off

check out the aribidic engine from smokey yunick
http://schou.dk/hvce/

also some turbine engines use the fuel heating method to take heat out of the compressor stack and increase effecnciy

[riff_raff]

A little off-topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

Instead of piston engines burning gasoline, why not burn diesel in small turbine engines driving a high speed electrical generator, which in turn constantly charges a small battery pack and super capacitor stack, which itself is used to power an electric drivetrain. Since the turbogenerator is constantly running, the battery pack could be small, and the supercapacitor stack would act as a buffer between the turbogenerator, batteries, and electric motors.

Now how cool and high-tech would that hybrid F1 car be? It's not HERS. It's more like HETGD (Hybrid Electric Turbo Generator Drivetrain). But the acceleration produced by 750 hp worth of electric motors would be phenomenal.

The electric drive would be strangely quiet. But the 40,000 rpm turbogenerator would still make a cool noise, like a jet airplane zooming by. Plus, a good 750HP turboshaft engine only weighs about 300 lbs. Not much more than current F1 piston engines. And it would last an entire season without rebuild. The electric drives would help with costs too, since they would not need 7 speed transmissions.

Think about it. I know I bad-mouthed the idea of electric F1 cars on another thread, but a turbo-electric hybrid F1 car might be kind of cool.

Regards,
Terry

PS. Anyone know Max's cell phone number?

[flynfrog]

A little off-topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

Instead of piston engines burning gasoline, why not burn diesel in small turbine engines driving a high speed electrical generator, which in turn constantly charges a small battery pack and super capacitor stack, which itself is used to power an electric drivetrain. Since the turbogenerator is constantly running, the battery pack could be small, and the supercapacitor stack would act as a buffer between the turbogenerator, batteries, and electric motors.

Now how cool and high-tech would that hybrid F1 car be? It's not HERS. It's more like HETGD (Hybrid Electric Turbo Generator Drivetrain). But the acceleration produced by 750 hp worth of electric motors would be phenomenal.

The electric drive would be strangely quiet. But the 40,000 rpm turbogenerator would still make a cool noise, like a jet airplane zooming by. Plus, a good 750HP turboshaft engine only weighs about 300 lbs. Not much more than current F1 piston engines. And it would last an entire season without rebuild. The electric drives would help with costs too, since they would not need 7 speed transmissions.

Think about it. I know I bad-mouthed the idea of electric F1 cars on another thread, but a turbo-electric hybrid F1 car might be kind of cool.

Regards,
Terry

PS. Anyone know Max's cell phone number?

Ive wanted to see this for a long time. My company built some prototypes back in the 60s for the big 3 the turbines were tiny. and you could burn pretty much any fuel in them diesel jetA gasoline whiskey

[riff_raff]

flynfrog,

Nooooo!!!!

Tell me it's not true! You used whiskey for running your engines?

Hopefully, it was some inferior beverage like Canadian Whiskey or that cheap corn swill from Tennessee, and not an Irish Whiskey or Kentucky Bourbon. That would have been a mortal sin.....

[noname]

(...) Instead of piston engines burning gasoline, why not burn diesel in small turbine engines driving a high speed electrical generator, which in turn constantly charges a small battery pack and super capacitor stack, which itself is used to power an electric drivetrain. (...)

why not to stay with just the turbine ? generator and batteries means additional mass and losses during transferring energy from mechanical to electrical and again to mechanical to drive the wheels.

just imagine the noise during acceleration.

(...) Tell me it's not true! You used whiskey for running your engines?

from the times when I was working on the jet engines I remember meeting with one guy in Evandale. he told me they were testing their aero-derivative turbines using almost everything what could serve as a fuel. for sure they were testing alcohol too... and the Jim Beam factory is just few miles away...

[Giblet]

flynfrog,

Nooooo!!!!

Tell me it's not true! You used whiskey for running your engines?

Hopefully, it was some inferior beverage like Canadian Whiskey or that cheap corn swill from Tennessee, and not an Irish Whiskey or Kentucky Bourbon. That would have been a mortal sin.....

You have never had Crown Royal whiskey then? That purple draw string bag has always meant amazing whiskey within.

Your opinion of whiskey's should not be what it is, as Crown Royal is one of the best in the world. Everyone know that Irish Whiskey exists solely to keep them from taking over the world, and it has been working for the most part.

If you have ever had Old Vienna, or any of the basic Seagrams whiskeys, I can understand your opinion of it.

[tomislavp4]

How about using the heat from the brakes to drive a turbine? Or to heat water and use the steam to drive a turbine? How feasible is it?

[PlatinumZealot]

The heat from the brakes is intermittent and also it it would be difficult getting the water around there. The energy of the slowing car is Kinetic. To use steam.. is Kinetic from the car>heat from the brakes>Kinetic in the turbine and generator so it is less efficient than KERS.

The brake steam generation idea is still feasible though. But KERS edges it out because of the more direct energy transfer.

I did a Turbine go-kart project once.. I did not get to test it though. The Turbine engines have very SLoooow response time compared to F1 (they like running at constant speeds) so the Electric motor has to be used a lot. The throttle might have to be a combination of a clutch, electic motor and the actual fuel injection.. to create "Quasi-throttle response". And then you have the nasty fuel consumption..

The good points are the light weight, the POWER the TORQUE, You don't need as many gears.. It behaves like an automatic transmission (The Power turbine is like a torque converter)..and the flexible fuels as mentioned, and DURABILITY..

LOL I don't think it is going to work very well though just because of the throttle response.. But if there was time to develop it you never know.

[flynfrog]

flynfrog,

Nooooo!!!!

Tell me it's not true! You used whiskey for running your engines?

Hopefully, it was some inferior beverage like Canadian Whiskey or that cheap corn swill from Tennessee, and not an Irish Whiskey or Kentucky Bourbon. That would have been a mortal sin.....

the only difference between Indy race fuel and Canadian whiskey is they add gasoline to the indy fuel so it will taste the same as the Canadian whiskey