F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
diffuser
207
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

wuzak wrote:
19 Apr 2023, 07:15
PlatinumZealot wrote:
16 Apr 2023, 18:18
In 2026 the electrical contribution to power will be 50% and the fuel, or rather the energy from fuel, will be limited over the race to approximately 70% of what it is now. This means that very likely a bigger energy store will come into play.

Since the rules are not yet finalized, it is not clear yet how the bigger energy store might be managed. I am thinking in the case were the energy store is non-sustainable at max charge over the race, or in other words, the energy garnered from KERS (no MGUH anymore!) is less than the potential allowed discharge rate - or simply put a single battery starts the race at 100% SOC and maxes out at say, 50% at the end of the race - The rules could be made to allow battery swaps!
The ES rules seem pretty final.

The specify design and construction, required safety features, minimum mass and maximum storage.

PlatinumZealot wrote:
16 Apr 2023, 18:18
So yeah, so the engineering side now bring this thought to the discussion, how energy dense are expecting batteries to be to make them small enough to swap under the chassis (skid plate and all) or even from the side of chassis? Current batteries are regulated to 20kg? but most if it is ballast. What if we hot swap a 40kg battery? And how many kWhrs would that contain? It's a fascinating premise.
Storage is 4MJ maximum delta state of charge. Minimum weight for casing, cells, and other specified components, is 35kg.

And there is a limit to the number of ES used in a season.
Couldn't we drive the mgu-k under acceleration when max ICE power isn't required to charge the battery?

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

''Couldn't we drive the MGU-K under acceleration? Not according to RBPT project leader. Only under braking as is at present.

User avatar
diffuser
207
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
25 May 2023, 07:54
''Couldn't we drive the MGU-K under acceleration? Not according to RBPT project leader. Only under braking as is at present.
It's gonna be interesting to see how this pans out. With the new MGU-K and the same 4MJ battery, you got about 11 seconds of battery. Then what?

Anything preventing a driver from shifting break bias 100% to rear, disabling MGU-K discharge, flooring it and stepping on brakes at the same time?

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

Agree, it's going to be interesting how it's going to pen out. Am as curious as you are.
Last edited by Stu on 25 May 2023, 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Spelling

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

''Anything preventing the driver from using both brake and throttle at the same time?''. The brake-by-wire system failsafe system is designed to cut the engine when a driver applies brake and throttle at the same time. If a driver applies both brake and throttle at the same time the failsafe algorithm is designed to override the throttle and cut the engine. And as said earlier as well as elsewhere before, the present RBPT project leader engineer does said that using the brake pedal while under power to charge ES (MGU-K HARVESTING UNDER POWER) will be a no-go with the new for 2026 engine formula as is at present.

wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
26 May 2023, 06:47
''Anything preventing the driver from using both brake and throttle at the same time?''. The brake-by-wire system failsafe system is designed to cut the engine when a driver applies brake and throttle at the same time. If a driver applies both brake and throttle at the same time the failsafe algorithm is designed to override the throttle and cut the engine. And as said earlier as well as elsewhere before, the present RBPT project leader engineer does said that using the brake pedal while under power to charge ES (MGU-K HARVESTING UNDER POWER) will be a no-go with the new for 2026 engine formula as is at present.
Thee is no explicit rule outlawing recovering energy while under power in the current regulations.

The 2026 regulations specifically allow for reduction in power unit output when at maximum torque demand (ie full throttle). The regulations specify a maximum rate at which the output can be reduced, and a maximum output reduction allowed.

The maximum reduction of output allowed is 450kW, or 100kW greater than what could be achieved by turning off the MGUK.

It is possible, but very unlikely, that the ICE output would be reduced by 100kW. More likely, the MGUK will be generating 100kW while under full throttle. That is, burning fuel to generate and store energy.

At this stage the F1 car will have around 400hp output.

There is no possible way to generate the 9MJ per lap allowed in the regulations from braking alone, and it would require extensive lift and coasting.

9MJ = 25.7s of generation @ 350kW.

wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

diffuser wrote:
25 May 2023, 12:14
saviour stivala wrote:
25 May 2023, 07:54
''Couldn't we drive the MGU-K under acceleration? Not according to RBPT project leader. Only under braking as is at present.
It's gonna be interesting to see how this pans out. With the new MGU-K and the same 4MJ battery, you got about 11 seconds of battery. Then what?

Anything preventing a driver from shifting break bias 100% to rear, disabling MGU-K discharge, flooring it and stepping on brakes at the same time?
I suspect that they will only use the full 350kW deployment

For instance:
2 second deployed @ 350kW = 700kJ
6 second deployment transition (start at 350kW and go to 150kW in 6s - maximum reduction rate is 100kW per second) @ 250kW (average) = 1500kJ
12 seconds @ 150kW = 1800kJ

Then use the remaining time before braking to recover 100kW.

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

wuzak wrote:
26 May 2023, 10:52
saviour stivala wrote:
26 May 2023, 06:47
''Anything preventing the driver from using both brake and throttle at the same time?''. The brake-by-wire system failsafe system is designed to cut the engine when a driver applies brake and throttle at the same time. If a driver applies both brake and throttle at the same time the failsafe algorithm is designed to override the throttle and cut the engine. And as said earlier as well as elsewhere before, the present RBPT project leader engineer does said that using the brake pedal while under power to charge ES (MGU-K HARVESTING UNDER POWER) will be a no-go with the new for 2026 engine formula as is at present.
Thee is no explicit rule outlawing recovering energy while under power in the current regulations.

The 2026 regulations specifically allow for reduction in power unit output when at maximum torque demand (ie full throttle). The regulations specify a maximum rate at which the output can be reduced, and a maximum output reduction allowed.

The maximum reduction of output allowed is 450kW, or 100kW greater than what could be achieved by turning off the MGUK.

It is possible, but very unlikely, that the ICE output would be reduced by 100kW. More likely, the MGUK will be generating 100kW while under full throttle. That is, burning fuel to generate and store energy.

At this stage the F1 car will have around 400hp output.

There is no possible way to generate the 9MJ per lap allowed in the regulations from braking alone, and it would require extensive lift and coasting.

9MJ = 25.7s of generation @ 350kW.
There is no need for any rule outlawing recovery by MGU-K while under power, this as the present MGU-K recovery guidelines outlines/defines recovery by MGU-K ''energy recovered as under braking that would otherwise have gone to waste''. This eliminates design possibilities of MGU-K switching to recovery mode under throttle, and further as explained, the possibility of driver using both brake and throttle together so as MGU-K goes into recovery mode is eliminated by the brake-by-wire fail safe system. I remember two accidents, one was fetal and the other near fetal where it was found that the same team, had modified the brake-by-wire fail-safe system as supplied to them in contravention of the F1 intended spirit of the safety rules. As to the possibility that the 2026 rules will allow MGU-K to switch into recovery mode under power but without brake pedal being used, The RBPT leading design engineer seem to have eliminated this possibility in his interview by RET.

wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
26 May 2023, 12:06
As to the possibility that the 2026 rules will allow MGU-K to switch into recovery mode under power but without brake pedal being used, The RBPT leading design engineer seem to have eliminated this possibility in his interview by RET.
Leading design engineer for the internal combustion engine, not the complete power unit.

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

wuzak wrote:
26 May 2023, 12:37
saviour stivala wrote:
26 May 2023, 12:06
As to the possibility that the 2026 rules will allow MGU-K to switch into recovery mode under power but without brake pedal being used, The RBPT leading design engineer seem to have eliminated this possibility in his interview by RET.
Leading design engineer for the internal combustion engine, not the complete power unit.
You already said that elsewhere before, meaning that a leading design engineer for the combustion engine possibly does not know the rules as regards the complete power unite. Something very hard to swollow

wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
26 May 2023, 12:06
There is no need for any rule outlawing recovery by MGU-K while under power, this as the present MGU-K recovery guidelines outlines/defines recovery by MGU-K ''energy recovered as under braking that would otherwise have gone to waste''. This eliminates design possibilities of MGU-K switching to recovery mode under throttle, and further as explained, the possibility of driver using both brake and throttle together so as MGU-K goes into recovery mode is eliminated by the brake-by-wire fail safe system.
2022 Power Unit regulations:
5.1 Definitions

5.1.5 Energy Recovery System (ERS)
A system that is designed to recover energy from the car, store that energy and make it available to propel the car and, optionally, to drive any ancillaries and actuation systems necessary for its proper function.

5.1.6 Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic (MGU-K)
The Kinetic Motor Generator Unit is the electrical machine mechanically linked to the drive train as part of the ERS.


5.3 Other Means of Propulsion and Energy Recovery

5.3.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft. An in-line, passive, dissipative energy torque limitation device may be incorporated in this link which temporarily allows the speed ratio to change for the sole purpose of protecting the components from dynamic torque overshoots. This device may only act above 220Nm when referred to crankshaft speed.
The rotational speed of the MGU-K may not exceed 50,000rpm.
The mass of the MGU-K (as defined in line 12 of Appendix 3 to these regulations) may not be less than 7kg.
The power of the MGU-K may not exceed 120 kW. The maximum torque of the MGU-K may not exceed 200Nm. The torque will be referenced to the crankshaft speed and the fixed efficiency correction defined in Article 5.3.2 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power and torque.
The laminate thickness of the MGU-K may not be less than 0.05mm.
The MGU-K must be fitted with a torque sensor which has been manufactured and calibrated by a FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA. The installation of the MGU-K torque sensor must be approved by the FIA.


5.6 Power unit torque demand

5.6.1 The only means by which the driver may control acceleration torque to the driven wheels is via a single foot (accelerator) pedal mounted inside the survival cell.

5.6.2 Designs which allow specific points along the accelerator pedal travel range to be identified by the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.

5.6.3 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing for an increase in accelerator pedal position.

5.6.4 At any given accelerator pedal position and above 4,000rpm, the driver torque demand map must not have a gradient of less than – (minus) 0.045Nm/rpm.


5.13 Energy Recovery System (ERS)

5.13.1 The system will be considered shut down when no high voltage can be present on any external or accessible part of the ERS, or across any capacitor belonging to the MGU control units.
The shutdown process must take no longer than two seconds from activation.
It must be possible to shut down the ERS via the following means :
a. The switch required by Article 8.8.1.
b. The switches required by Article 8.8.2.
c. The switch or button required by Article 9.4.

5.13.2 The ERS must shut down when the FIA Standard ECU initiates an anti-stall engine shut off.

5.13.3 All cars must be fitted with two ERS status lights which:
a. Have been supplied by an FIA designated manufacturer and fitted to the car in accordance with the instructions in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations.
b. Are in working order throughout the Competition even if the main hydraulic, pneumatic or electrical systems on the car have failed.
c. Remain powered for at least 15 minutes if the car comes to rest with its engine stopped.
d. Are marked with a “HIGH VOLTAGE” symbol according to ISO3864 of at least 30mm along the triangle side and no more than 50mm away from the lights.

5.13.4 All cars must provide signals regarding the car operating and insulation states to the FIA ADR in order to facilitate control of the ERS status lights.

5.13.5 The maximum working voltage on the car must never exceed 1000V.

5.13.6 The following elements of the power unit must be installed wholly within the survival cell:
a. ES elements as defined in lines 16 and 17 of Appendix 3 to these regulations.
b. Any DC-DC converter connected to ES HV DC bus. Includes active parts, enclosure, brackets and supports.
c. CU-K. Includes active parts, enclosure, brackets and supports.
d. CU-H. Includes active parts, enclosure, brackets and supports.
e. HV DC connections between ES and CU-K/CU-H/DC-DC converter. Includes all conductors, insulation, EMC screening, mechanical and thermal shielding.

The minimum values of volume and mass for these groups of components are 22.0 l and 31.0 kg respectively. The procedure which will be used to determine these values may be found in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations.


I can't see anything like "'energy recovered as under braking that would otherwise have gone to waste".

The regulations only use the word "waste" in referring to "wastegate" and to a part of the fuel specifications:

16.2 Fuel definitions

Second generation bio components

"Second generation bio components are components manufactured from various types of non-food biomass, including lignocellulosic biomass, algae, agricultural residues or waste and dedicated non-food energy crops grown on marginal land unsuitable for food production. Biocomponents from food crops can be regarded as second generation only if they have already fulfilled their food purpose (e.g. waste vegetable oil because it has already been used and is no longer fit for human consumption). It includes all biocomponents falling into the RED II definition."


Perhaps you could point out where in the regulations using the MGUK to recover energy while at full throttle is forbidden, or where it states the MGUK can only recover energy under braking.

wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

wuzak wrote:
26 May 2023, 11:01
diffuser wrote:
25 May 2023, 12:14
saviour stivala wrote:
25 May 2023, 07:54
''Couldn't we drive the MGU-K under acceleration? Not according to RBPT project leader. Only under braking as is at present.
It's gonna be interesting to see how this pans out. With the new MGU-K and the same 4MJ battery, you got about 11 seconds of battery. Then what?

Anything preventing a driver from shifting break bias 100% to rear, disabling MGU-K discharge, flooring it and stepping on brakes at the same time?
I suspect that they will only use the full 350kW deployment

For instance:
2 second deployed @ 350kW = 700kJ
6 second deployment transition (start at 350kW and go to 150kW in 6s - maximum reduction rate is 100kW per second) @ 250kW (average) = 1500kJ
12 seconds @ 150kW = 1800kJ

Then use the remaining time before braking to recover 100kW.
Of course, a track where there are two longish straights separated by a slow corner would be interesting.

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

Formula one ERS (energy recovery system) uses 'Kinetic' energy waste and 'Heat' energy waste. It gets 'Heat' waste energy from turbocharger and 'Kinetic' waste energy from braking system. The energy from ERS is then exploited to run the car.

Tommy Cookers
617
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
26 May 2023, 16:01
Formula one ERS ....gets 'Heat' waste energy from turbocharger and 'Kinetic' waste energy from braking system.
and it gets heat waste energy from the GU-K action (just like a hybrid road car)
because there is no rule against this (as it's within the PU torque map limits)

the ICE is continuously releasing waste heat (as it can't turn all fuel heat into work)
at partial powers this waste % will be reduced when load is increased (by GU-K action)

road hybrids are about reducing the waste %
so are F1 hybrids

wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
26 May 2023, 16:01
Formula one ERS (energy recovery system) uses 'Kinetic' energy waste and 'Heat' energy waste. It gets 'Heat' waste energy from turbocharger and 'Kinetic' waste energy from braking system. The energy from ERS is then exploited to run the car.
adjective: kinetic
relating to or resulting from motion.


The definition of "kinetic" would suggest that the MGUK can recover energy when the car is moving.


I am still waiting for you to demonstrate where in the regulations it states that the MGUK can only recover energy during braking.

Post Reply