2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

And RBR won 4 titles with a customer engine. And Williams was regularly getting podiums a decade ago with a customer engine. And Alpine's works engine sucks. Enough with the blanket statements

Red Bull's relationship with Renault was not "customer". The relationship was such that Red Bull got Renault to build them an engine that was compatible with the blown exhaust concept. Renault didn't even official F1 team after 2010. They sold the team. Red Bull was the factory. This would never happen now. Mercedes will do what's best for themselves first.

Williams was getting podiums because the Mercedes had 80-90hp more than everyone else. Look where they are now that PUs are more equal.

You have an F1 expert, and leader of a team that is currently quite a bit of ahead of Mclaren telling you the importance of the PU-chassis integration. What is there left to say? I take Krack's statement with full value and credibility.

The potentially worrying part for Mclaren is that Honda, RBPT, and Audi do not appear to want to supply Mclaren and mostly for reasons related to wanting to focus on themselves. Audi said they focus on themselves. RBPT said they focus on themselves. Honda have already snubbed Mclaren with the AMR announcement.

Having a pure customer relationship is a weakness no matter how much one would not like it to be.

I guess there are 2 points around the engine here. The first is that the design of the engine and the way it fits into the chassis is not decided by the customer team. This is a fair point, but how much of a hindrance is it to the team and how restricted are they in their cooling options?

We've certainly see Mclaren try a few different cooling configurations and it wasn't determined by the Mercedes engine. As for the fit into the chassis, well we changed from Renault to Merc in the winter that had the development freeze and we had a very good year indeed. It didn't seem to be a huge issue to the team to be able to maintain the cars standards and to have a good season.

As for developing the car to fit with the new engine, I recall reading Toto Wolfs comments about how they share all the dimensions of the engine with all the expected outputs well in advance of chassis developments. Wether this is always the case I don't know, and whether they don't give themselves a little headstart on their own developments, maybe so...

But on both counts, I think the benefits are marginal and I really don't think that in this formula that Works team status is such a big deal.

I recall you asking why AM would go with Honda if not for the works status.

Well, for one the engines are at worst going to be free and at best Honda will give them some money. A much needed cash saving after all the capital expenditure (Although it is important to note that engines aren't part of the budget cap). And second, it is the best engine on the grid, they have their act together and have time to develop the engine for 26. So why not? Plenty of reasons to go with Honda before you even consider works status.

[AR3-GP]

And RBR won 4 titles with a customer engine. And Williams was regularly getting podiums a decade ago with a customer engine. And Alpine's works engine sucks. Enough with the blanket statements

Red Bull's relationship with Renault was not "customer". The relationship was such that Red Bull got Renault to build them an engine that was compatible with the blown exhaust concept. Renault didn't even official F1 team after 2010. They sold the team. Red Bull was the factory. This would never happen now. Mercedes will do what's best for themselves first.

Williams was getting podiums because the Mercedes had 80-90hp more than everyone else. Look where they are now that PUs are more equal.

You have an F1 expert, and leader of a team that is currently quite a bit of ahead of Mclaren telling you the importance of the PU-chassis integration. What is there left to say? I take Krack's statement with full value and credibility.

The potentially worrying part for Mclaren is that Honda, RBPT, and Audi do not appear to want to supply Mclaren and mostly for reasons related to wanting to focus on themselves. Audi said they focus on themselves. RBPT said they focus on themselves. Honda have already snubbed Mclaren with the AMR announcement.

Having a pure customer relationship is a weakness no matter how much one would not like it to be.

I guess there are 2 points around the engine here. The first is that the design of the engine and the way it fits into the chassis is not decided by the customer team. This is a fair point, but how much of a hindrance is it to the team and how restricted are they in their cooling options?

We've certainly see Mclaren try a few different cooling configurations and it wasn't determined by the Mercedes engine. As for the fit into the chassis, well we changed from Renault to Merc in the winter that had the development freeze and we had a very good year indeed. It didn't seem to be a huge issue to the team to be able to maintain the cars standards and to have a good season.

As for developing the car to fit with the new engine, I recall reading Toto Wolfs comments about how they share all the dimensions of the engine with all the expected outputs well in advance of chassis developments. Wether this is always the case I don't know, and whether they don't give themselves a little headstart on their own developments, maybe so...

But on both counts, I think the benefits are marginal and I really don't think that in this formula that Works team status is such a big deal.

I recall you asking why AM would go with Honda if not for the works status.

Well, for one the engines are at worst going to be free and at best Honda will give them some money. A much needed cash saving after all the capital expenditure (Although it is important to note that engines aren't part of the budget cap). And second, it is the best engine on the grid, they have their act together and have time to develop the engine for 26. So why not? Plenty of reasons to go with Honda before you even consider works status.

You also have the glaring confidentiality problem...

Mercedes was able to learn a lot about their 2023 car deficiencies by studying Aston Martin's performance whereby they had known variables like the Mercedes PU. This is another reason not to be tied up with a team you will compete against.

[mwillems]

3) As for the rest of your post, I said:

I'm not saying that Mclaren will be solved by having their own engine partner, but the lack of their own engine supplier and inability to court one is a symptom of systemic issues.

A systemic issue? No idea what you mean by that in total honesty… What systemic issue?

Inability to court one? Who exactly?… As of a couple days ago there was only one potential “works” deal in place and that was with Honda, which I’m guessing that based on the recent past experience between both brands, it was a very hard deal to pull through… Who else? Audi? They are going with their own car (so no works deal there possible)… Who else?… Which engine manufacturer is out there right now to sign a works deal with?

There was obviously a lot of talk about Audi as an engine supplier and we know that Mclaren had talks with Audi but that is about it. We do know that there were talks between Audi and Red Bull, but that was dependent on Audi taking a share of the team. Quite possibly this same discussion with Mclaren but we turned them down.

Point is, we don't know what happened with Audi or if we were offered and engine. We know we had talks with RBR, so this option was certainly open to us, we don't know what hapened with Honda but we can reasonably assume that this was a closed avenue.

So it is reasonable to assume that the only engine partner that wouldn't touch us is Honda, for obvious reasons, and Ferrari, for obvious reasons.

We have no system issue, and we barely have a brand issue, we've gone from strength to strength since we separated from Honda.

But the Mclaren Honda brand has an issue and won't go for some time. That is not systemic, and not symptomatic of anything except some dire few years.

[mwillems]

Red Bull's relationship with Renault was not "customer". The relationship was such that Red Bull got Renault to build them an engine that was compatible with the blown exhaust concept. Renault didn't even official F1 team after 2010. They sold the team. Red Bull was the factory. This would never happen now. Mercedes will do what's best for themselves first.

Williams was getting podiums because the Mercedes had 80-90hp more than everyone else. Look where they are now that PUs are more equal.

You have an F1 expert, and leader of a team that is currently quite a bit of ahead of Mclaren telling you the importance of the PU-chassis integration. What is there left to say? I take Krack's statement with full value and credibility.

The potentially worrying part for Mclaren is that Honda, RBPT, and Audi do not appear to want to supply Mclaren and mostly for reasons related to wanting to focus on themselves. Audi said they focus on themselves. RBPT said they focus on themselves. Honda have already snubbed Mclaren with the AMR announcement.

Having a pure customer relationship is a weakness no matter how much one would not like it to be.

I guess there are 2 points around the engine here. The first is that the design of the engine and the way it fits into the chassis is not decided by the customer team. This is a fair point, but how much of a hindrance is it to the team and how restricted are they in their cooling options?

We've certainly see Mclaren try a few different cooling configurations and it wasn't determined by the Mercedes engine. As for the fit into the chassis, well we changed from Renault to Merc in the winter that had the development freeze and we had a very good year indeed. It didn't seem to be a huge issue to the team to be able to maintain the cars standards and to have a good season.

As for developing the car to fit with the new engine, I recall reading Toto Wolfs comments about how they share all the dimensions of the engine with all the expected outputs well in advance of chassis developments. Wether this is always the case I don't know, and whether they don't give themselves a little headstart on their own developments, maybe so...

But on both counts, I think the benefits are marginal and I really don't think that in this formula that Works team status is such a big deal.

I recall you asking why AM would go with Honda if not for the works status.

Well, for one the engines are at worst going to be free and at best Honda will give them some money. A much needed cash saving after all the capital expenditure (Although it is important to note that engines aren't part of the budget cap). And second, it is the best engine on the grid, they have their act together and have time to develop the engine for 26. So why not? Plenty of reasons to go with Honda before you even consider works status.

You also have the glaring confidentiality problem...

Mercedes was able to learn a lot about their 2023 car deficiencies by studying Aston Martin's performance whereby they had known variables like the Mercedes PU. This is another reason not to be tied up with a team you will compete against.

Well we competed with Red Bull with a renault engine and it rather hlped us understand that we were sh*t.

Swings and roundabouts on that one I think. I respect your opinion but I'm not in the works deal camp, don't think it is really a big deal.

[MTudor]

I guess there are 2 points around the engine here. The first is that the design of the engine and the way it fits into the chassis is not decided by the customer team. This is a fair point, but how much of a hindrance is it to the team and how restricted are they in their cooling options?

We've certainly see Mclaren try a few different cooling configurations and it wasn't determined by the Mercedes engine. As for the fit into the chassis, well we changed from Renault to Merc in the winter that had the development freeze and we had a very good year indeed. It didn't seem to be a huge issue to the team to be able to maintain the cars standards and to have a good season.

As for developing the car to fit with the new engine, I recall reading Toto Wolfs comments about how they share all the dimensions of the engine with all the expected outputs well in advance of chassis developments. Wether this is always the case I don't know, and whether they don't give themselves a little headstart on their own developments, maybe so...

But on both counts, I think the benefits are marginal and I really don't think that in this formula that Works team status is such a big deal.

I recall you asking why AM would go with Honda if not for the works status.

Well, for one the engines are at worst going to be free and at best Honda will give them some money. A much needed cash saving after all the capital expenditure (Although it is important to note that engines aren't part of the budget cap). And second, it is the best engine on the grid, they have their act together and have time to develop the engine for 26. So why not? Plenty of reasons to go with Honda before you even consider works status.

You also have the glaring confidentiality problem...

Mercedes was able to learn a lot about their 2023 car deficiencies by studying Aston Martin's performance whereby they had known variables like the Mercedes PU. This is another reason not to be tied up with a team you will compete against.

Well we competed with Red Bull with a renault engine and it rather hlped us understand that we were sh*t.

Swings and roundabouts on that one I think. I respect your opinion but I'm not in the works deal camp, don't think it is really a big deal.

Remember what Ron Dennis said,you can't beat your competitors if your a customer team or something like that.
As much as I dislike Ron Dennis he was right about that!

[Ground Effect]

You also have the glaring confidentiality problem...

Mercedes was able to learn a lot about their 2023 car deficiencies by studying Aston Martin's performance whereby they had known variables like the Mercedes PU. This is another reason not to be tied up with a team you will compete against.

Well we competed with Red Bull with a renault engine and it rather hlped us understand that we were sh*t.

Swings and roundabouts on that one I think. I respect your opinion but I'm not in the works deal camp, don't think it is really a big deal.

Remember what Ron Dennis said,you can't beat your competitors if your a customer team or something like that.
As much as I dislike Ron Dennis he was right about that!

Brawn beat them.

[AR3-GP]

Well we competed with Red Bull with a renault engine and it rather hlped us understand that we were sh*t.

Swings and roundabouts on that one I think. I respect your opinion but I'm not in the works deal camp, don't think it is really a big deal.

Remember what Ron Dennis said,you can't beat your competitors if your a customer team or something like that.
As much as I dislike Ron Dennis he was right about that!

Brawn beat them.

This was supposed to be Mclaren's 2022, whereby they pulled a rabbit out of a hat on the eve of new regulations.

[mwillems]

You also have the glaring confidentiality problem...

Mercedes was able to learn a lot about their 2023 car deficiencies by studying Aston Martin's performance whereby they had known variables like the Mercedes PU. This is another reason not to be tied up with a team you will compete against.

Well we competed with Red Bull with a renault engine and it rather hlped us understand that we were sh*t.

Swings and roundabouts on that one I think. I respect your opinion but I'm not in the works deal camp, don't think it is really a big deal.

Remember what Ron Dennis said,you can't beat your competitors if your a customer team or something like that.
As much as I dislike Ron Dennis he was right about that!

Thing is, that was a very long time ago and this is a very different time, so I don't buy into Ron Dennis says it so it's right. Ron Dennis also pushed away Newey screwed with the entire culture and structure of Mclaren. I'm more interested in actual reasons that you might think it's right, of actual reasons you think it gives the team an advantage.

[mwillems]

Remember what Ron Dennis said,you can't beat your competitors if your a customer team or something like that.
As much as I dislike Ron Dennis he was right about that!

Brawn beat them.

This was supposed to be Mclaren's 2022, whereby they pulled a rabbit out of a hat on the eve of new regulations.

Well, only cos that's what the fans said and then repeated. Nowhere did the team say that. They just spoke in measured terms about the fact that it is an opportunity, with no certainty that they would be the team take it.

[AR3-GP]

Brawn beat them.

This was supposed to be Mclaren's 2022, whereby they pulled a rabbit out of a hat on the eve of new regulations.

Well, only cos that's what the fans said and then repeated. Nowhere did the team say that. They just spoke in measured terms about the fact that it is an opportunity, with no certainty that they would be the team take it.

But if we're saying that Brawn shows that "privateers" or otherwise non-works teams show that it's possible for Mclaren to succeed then you must acknowledge the way that Brawn achieved it which was by beating others to the punch on the eve of new regulations. I do not expect Mclaren to outwork RB, Mercedes, AMR, and Ferrari this late into the current regulations cycle. To pull a Brawn, they needed to find something big for 2022. 2024 will be the third year and regs familiarity and regulation is quite mature at this point.

2026 would seem to be the earliest that one could hope for Mclaren to make this leap, and you dont have to take my word for it, Zak said it too:

“So I think our goal next year is to get back to a 2021-type season – a handful of podiums, a pole, a win, mixing it up – and then [in] ’25 we will have had everything that we need, and for the sufficient time, so I’d like to think we’re going to be winning races in ’25.

“And then once you’re winning races, we’ve got the new era starting in ’26. On paper, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be fighting for the Championship.”

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-r ... nts-mcl60/

[mwillems]

This was supposed to be Mclaren's 2022, whereby they pulled a rabbit out of a hat on the eve of new regulations.

Well, only cos that's what the fans said and then repeated. Nowhere did the team say that. They just spoke in measured terms about the fact that it is an opportunity, with no certainty that they would be the team take it.

But if we're saying that Brawn shows that "privateers" or otherwise non-works teams show that it's possible for Mclaren to succeed then you must acknowledge the way that Brawn achieved it which was by beating others to the punch on the eve of new regulations. I do not expect Mclaren to outwork RB, Mercedes, AMR, and Ferrari this late into the current regulations cycle. To pull a Brawn, they needed to find something big for 2022. 2024 will be the third year and regs familiarity and regulation is quite mature at this point.

Brawn was just an odd situation. It was a very fast Honda that had a privateer badge.

But the problem with comparing to the past is that a works team was typically very rich. That advantage has been taken away now and the regs around equal engines and mappings have changed everything too.

I suspect that going forward in these new regs, that you will see works status as much less relevant. I'm not going to say there isn't a small advantage, I just don't think it is much of one.

[mwillems]

An interest interview with Mercedes about their relationship with engine customers.

Specifically mentioned is that quite early in the design process, they release the CAD designs to the teams. So I don't think their is a timing disadvantage either.

In fact merc produce the engines with different adapters for the specific cooling systems of their customers.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/insi ... s/3221060/

[AR3-GP]

An interest interview with Mercedes about their relationship with engine customers.

Specifically mentioned is that quite early in the design process, they release the CAD designs to the teams. So I don't think their is a timing disadvantage either.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/insi ... s/3221060/

They have no input to the PU packaging or compromise between thermal requirements and aerodynamics.

[mwillems]

An interest interview with Mercedes about their relationship with engine customers.

Specifically mentioned is that quite early in the design process, they release the CAD designs to the teams. So I don't think their is a timing disadvantage either.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/insi ... s/3221060/

They have no input to the PU packaging or compromise between thermal requirements and aerodynamics.

Yes this is true, I agreed with that earlier. I just can't see any other advantage and I don't see that as being much of a disadvantage.

All of the engines would likely fit into all the cars with some chassis adaptations and minimal impact on aero other than by cooling requirements. Even then I don't think they'd differ much now.

New regs would see greater engine disparities for a couple of years before equalising though.

[SmallSoldier]

An interest interview with Mercedes about their relationship with engine customers.

Specifically mentioned is that quite early in the design process, they release the CAD designs to the teams. So I don't think their is a timing disadvantage either.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/insi ... s/3221060/

They have no input to the PU packaging or compromise between thermal requirements and aerodynamics.

Yes this is true, I agreed with that earlier. I just can't see any other advantage and I don't see that as being much of a disadvantage.

All of the engines would likely fit into all the cars with some chassis adaptations and minimal impact on aero other than by cooling requirements. Even then I don't think they'd differ much now.

New regs would see greater engine disparities for a couple of years before equalising though.

The cooling requirements are not mandated by the aero / chassis team… The engine manufacturer/ department will make the most powerful and reliable unit they can make and then let the other departments know what they requirements are and not viceversa… The teams build their chassis (Tub) and their radiators to meet those requirements and their new car design… That’s why you can have the same PU in a car with Zero Pods (Mercedes), a car with a very narrow mid section (the MCL36), the 2 different iterations of the AMR last year and a very different side pod arrangement like the 2022 Williams… All of them with same PU architecture