2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis
mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
28 May 2023, 23:01
Interesting that Russell believed he was in the position to control the pace in front of Lewis. Lewis incidently answered that assumption by creating a 10+ second gap on him over the course of the end of the race. It's clear Russell pushes when Lewis is managing and maybe vice versa. But as soon as Lewis showed his real pace, Russell appeared unable to match and stay close.
Ocon dictated the pace ahead. There was no pace advantage for either Mercedes drivers. George gave up as there was no opportunity ahead and he was well clear of Leclerc behind.

Incognito
Incognito
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
29 May 2023, 10:37
AeroDynamic wrote:
28 May 2023, 23:01
Interesting that Russell believed he was in the position to control the pace in front of Lewis. Lewis incidently answered that assumption by creating a 10+ second gap on him over the course of the end of the race. It's clear Russell pushes when Lewis is managing and maybe vice versa. But as soon as Lewis showed his real pace, Russell appeared unable to match and stay close.
Ocon dictated the pace ahead. There was no pace advantage for either Mercedes drivers. George gave up as there was no opportunity ahead and he was well clear of Leclerc behind.
Given that people from the leader on down were making mistakes, seems pretty illogical of Russell not to stay with Hamilton. Suppose Ocon had gone wide? Or Hamilton? Being under Hamilton's gearbox would've earned him a place (potentially more if Hamilton and Ocon tangled).

What are people's views of Russell in changeable conditions? I don't recall if he struggles, excels or is generally average.

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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DGP123 wrote:
28 May 2023, 23:06
Same in Bahrain. If Russell sees an opportunity to take Lewis, he destroys his tyres to make it happen, or goes straight on the radio, to tell the world he’s apparently faster, and that Merc need to act and move him aside.

Russell was poor this weekend. Without the rain, he was nowhere
It's what most drivers do, get on the radio to complain that they are faster and their team mate should
move over. Russell never seemed to have the confidence to attack Monaco properly at any point during the
weekend. Lewis even with the crash seemed to be on it and trying to squeeze out as much laptime as he could.

As for tyre management? It's an essential skill to have in F1, it's an area I think Russell has to work on. He's not terrible at it, but he needs to learn patience I guess. It might be time for Wolff to have a word and tell him to tone it down on the radio.

DGP123
DGP123
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Interesting that Russell isn’t taking advantage this year of the lucky SC/rain opportunities. That was the difference last year, and gave him the pts difference over Lewis.

In Baku, he got gifted the SC, leapfrogged Lewis, and then Lewis re-overtook him. In Monaco, gets gifted the rain, which Brundle said he desperately needed, leapfrogged Lewis, and then ballsed it up thinking he was already on the podium.

Worrying trend for George. It went his way last year, but it looks a different story this time around.

Agree in regards to those bullet points. Last year inflated that ego, and now it’s not going his way, he’s getting frustrated. Toys might go flying if this continues.

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dans79
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
29 May 2023, 17:59
He gambled in Canada to gain an upper hand, which didn't work. Can you blame him for trying unlike Lewis who doesn't and moan when things that the team tried didn't work.
The team is the one that's supposed to have the majority of the input into strategy, because they have a lot more information available to them than the driver does. How many times has RB's strategists been praised for a good/winning strategy? Rhetorical question, a lot.

mendis wrote:
29 May 2023, 17:59
George's career is relatively short and mostly in poor cars.
The car being poor does not justify forgetting to use your brain. This is George on his off track excursion yesterday.
https://www.racefans.net/2023/05/28/rus ... rom-wolff/
“I’m really kicking myself because P3 was almost guaranteed after not pitting,” he admitted. “I came out, there was a yellow flag, I backed off, and as soon as I touched the brakes, I locked up and followed Stroll up the escape route.

“That’s probably a lesson that actually when you’re not on it and you’re not focussed, you make those mistakes. Probably if there wasn’t a yellow flag there, I would have just been focusing more and I wouldn’t have gone off and cost most the team a comfortable P3.”
He literally admitted he wasn't focused, when he should have been at his most focused. You know, when your are braking downhill in the rain, on bone cold intermediates with a single sector on them. He is super lucky his collision with Sergio didn't end in a dnf thanks to a broken right rear suspension, or damaged gear box.
201 105 104 9 9 7

DGP123
DGP123
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
29 May 2023, 19:27
Some drivers like Charles and Lewis just wait for the team make the calls and when it goes wrong, they moan. Drivers like Button, Alonso, now George and in some instances Max, have all made their own calls that turned out to be better than the people sitting in front of computers to make those decisions.
In your eyes, Hamilton must just sit there waiting for help every race. Bono must tell him where the pedals are. As for Alonso, he clearly messed up this weekend with those inspired calls he apparently makes, seeing as he pitted for slicks, and then 30 seconds later, it’s tipping down 😂

During a 17 year career, with over 100 race wins, Lewis has made his own calls to win races. Staying out in Turkey for example, was an inspired call, that ended up with him winning the race and championship. There are countless other times too. You just forget that though. What a surprise.

mendis
mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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The upside of his comments is, unlike the drivers of the past, the current generation of drivers are more open to self criticism. You have heard George, Lando and Charles all admitting their mistakes and not blaming the team! So that's a good thing for Mercedes!

[...]
Last edited by Steven on 29 May 2023, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Cut off-topic personal replies

mendis
mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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DGP123 wrote:
29 May 2023, 19:50
mendis wrote:
29 May 2023, 19:27
Some drivers like Charles and Lewis just wait for the team make the calls and when it goes wrong, they moan. Drivers like Button, Alonso, now George and in some instances Max, have all made their own calls that turned out to be better than the people sitting in front of computers to make those decisions.
In your eyes, Hamilton must just sit there waiting for help every race. Bono must tell him where the pedals are. As for Alonso, he clearly messed up this weekend with those inspired calls he apparently makes, seeing as he pitted for slicks, and then 30 seconds later, it’s tipping down 😂

During a 17 year career, with over 100 race wins, Lewis has made his own calls to win races. Staying out in Turkey for example, was an inspired call, that ended up with him winning the race and championship. There are countless other times too. You just forget that though. What a surprise.
Then why is George making his own calls a problem if you think it's a good thing? Because it doesn't help Lewis?

Hammerfist
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Ehhhh… drivers making tgeir own calls is risky and usually doesn’t work for them.

I.e. Lando norris lost his first win in sochi a couple years ago because he refused to pit for inters when the team was begging him to.

Im surprised merc gave george so much freedom last year. He is always trying to make his own calls. So far its been 50/50 but i doubt he will be successful long term if they continue to allow it.

The pitwall has more information than the driver. Let the pitwall make the calls, for better or worse. Shut up and drive ffs.

TimW
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Hammerfist wrote:
29 May 2023, 20:20
Ehhhh… drivers making tgeir own calls is risky and usually doesn’t work for them.

I.e. Lando norris lost his first win in sochi a couple years ago because he refused to pit for inters when the team was begging him to.

Im surprised merc gave george so much freedom last year. He is always trying to make his own calls. So far its been 50/50 but i doubt he will be successful long term if they continue to allow it.

The pitwall has more information than the driver. Let the pitwall make the calls, for better or worse. Shut up and drive ffs.
Verstappen's team radio on tire deg yesterday was an excellent example of that. Max was complaining about his tires and that he was losing time, GP was reassuring him that he was actually gaining time on Alonso.

But GP was asking Max' opinion during the wet phase of course.

bosyber
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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TimW wrote:
29 May 2023, 20:36
Hammerfist wrote:
29 May 2023, 20:20
Ehhhh… drivers making tgeir own calls is risky and usually doesn’t work for them.

I.e. Lando norris lost his first win in sochi a couple years ago because he refused to pit for inters when the team was begging him to.

Im surprised merc gave george so much freedom last year. He is always trying to make his own calls. So far its been 50/50 but i doubt he will be successful long term if they continue to allow it.

The pitwall has more information than the driver. Let the pitwall make the calls, for better or worse. Shut up and drive ffs.
Verstappen's team radio on tire deg yesterday was an excellent example of that. Max was complaining about his tires and that he was losing time, GP was reassuring him that he was actually gaining time on Alonso.

But GP was asking Max' opinion during the wet phase of course.
Indeed, that seems to be the best way to go, the team usually have all the data and the best overview of the race, even when quite a few drivers have shown remarkable insight and usage of the screens around the track to glean information. But in a quickly changing situation, it's a combination of relaying the useful info as best as possible while also trusting the driver with letting you know when the tyres really can't do what is needed (or safe, ie. stop now). If I recall correctly there was a moment in the race yesterday when Hamilton wasn't quite satisfied with the tyres (steering?) and his engineer told him that since stopping wasn't an option (dropping him to the back) he'd better make do, and that was that.

It's usually when team/driver don't trust they will do what's needed to deliver on the chosen target and strategy that things go wrong (I think this is the big issue we often see with Ferrari, they seem to not always have the same goal in mind as their driver).

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ValeVida46
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Wolff with a brief after Monaco and some words on the updates. Which should...should, give some critics a reasonable expectation of what can be expected.
The car felt together, which is important, but it’s still a bit nasty on the rear. So that's something which we need to dial out of the car for the next few races. But we have a new baseline and that's important to say: ‘Okay, this is what we have now.' We've taken questions off the table where we weren't sure of, be it the front suspension or the extravaganza of our bodywork. So, let's work from here. We're good at grinding away and the work that was done in the factories to bring that update here to Monaco from our team, it was really a big effort.
I think Barcelona is not enough. I think we need to collect data. That's why we put it also here in Monaco, and to collect further analysis which we will do in Barcelona. The next one, Montreal, is a little bit of an outlier again.
But over the next races hopefully we can really increase the performance of the car. But it's not going to suddenly be right there.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10475498/

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ValeVida46 wrote:
30 May 2023, 11:56
Wolff with a brief after Monaco and some words on the updates. Which should...should, give some critics a reasonable expectation of what can be expected.
The car felt together, which is important, but it’s still a bit nasty on the rear. So that's something which we need to dial out of the car for the next few races. But we have a new baseline and that's important to say: ‘Okay, this is what we have now.' We've taken questions off the table where we weren't sure of, be it the front suspension or the extravaganza of our bodywork. So, let's work from here. We're good at grinding away and the work that was done in the factories to bring that update here to Monaco from our team, it was really a big effort.
I think Barcelona is not enough. I think we need to collect data. That's why we put it also here in Monaco, and to collect further analysis which we will do in Barcelona. The next one, Montreal, is a little bit of an outlier again.
But over the next races hopefully we can really increase the performance of the car. But it's not going to suddenly be right there.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10475498/
This (which was reported since Saturday on a different news site) along with Hamilton's interviews are why I said I was unsure about the upgrade. Time will tell.

It's also why I pointed out that there was some PR management going on. How can Toto on another day say the car does not throw any surprises or negative behaviours
"But at least we haven't seen any behaviour of the car that would have been deemed as really negative."

Asked if the car was giving the drivers the confidence they require, he said: "I've never heard a driver saying in Monaco that feels good!

"I think it's always on the knife's edge. You've seen that with [Carlos] Sainz. And therefore not lots of great praise, but definitely going in the right direction."
It's all very cagey from both Wolff and Hamilton. The next day he says the car still has a "nasty rear".

All these mixed signals. They don't know if it's the track or the car at the moment but they are not going to say the upgrade didn't increase the driver's confidence, in spite of the "nasty rear".
A lion must kill its prey.

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ValeVida46
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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You're expecting Barcelona levels of feedback from Wolff and Hamilton....at Monaco. :lol:
Hamilton, Russell, Wolff and Shovlin all said the same thing, they won't know how well the upgrades work until they can get to a traditional race track. This was said repeatedly throughout the weekend and the lead up to the weekend as they knew Monaco would not be a good place to correlate the update very well. Imola's cancellation will do that to your preparation.
The problem really isn't what they're saying. The problem lies with unrealistic expectations and a seeming inability to treat this team as you would any other.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ValeVida46 wrote:
30 May 2023, 17:25
You're expecting Barcelona levels of feedback from Wolff and Hamilton....at Monaco. :lol:
Hamilton, Russell, Wolff and Shovlin all said the same thing, they won't know how well the upgrades work until they can get to a traditional race track. This was said repeatedly throughout the weekend and the lead up to the weekend as they knew Monaco would not be a good place to correlate the update very well. Imola's cancellation will do that to your preparation.
The problem really isn't what they're saying. The problem lies with unrealistic expectations and a seeming inability to treat this team as you would any other.
A driver always knows in their gut just like Hamilton knew in the shakedowns in '22 and '23.

I never said I expect Mercedes to be 0.5 second faster or anything like that. There's no unrealistic expectation. The only thing I expected was a fundamental improvement in the handling and I said I was skeptical after Monaco based on mixed signals being cast by Wolff and Hamilton. Time will tell.
A lion must kill its prey.