Small turbines tend to not be that efficient.
The best way to use the turbine in that case is to run it at constant speed (thereby maximising efficiency) and have the electric motor controller respond to the driver's input.Zynerji wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 9:18 pmMy idea was to put the rde between the impeller shell and the exducer shell (where the current turbo designs use a cartridge bearing), with the MGUH connected to the shaft on the impeller end. Something like 600V/300A because of high RPM that would drive electric motors front and rear. In this setup, there would be no battery (maybe small ultracap array for electric hysteresis). As driver demands torque, RPM of the gas generator changes to deliver more amperage. Pretty simple imho.
That's what I meant by a hysteresis battery.wuzak wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 3:38 pmThe best way to use the turbine in that case is to run it at constant speed (thereby maximising efficiency) and have the electric motor controller respond to the driver's input.Zynerji wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 9:18 pmMy idea was to put the rde between the impeller shell and the exducer shell (where the current turbo designs use a cartridge bearing), with the MGUH connected to the shaft on the impeller end. Something like 600V/300A because of high RPM that would drive electric motors front and rear. In this setup, there would be no battery (maybe small ultracap array for electric hysteresis). As driver demands torque, RPM of the gas generator changes to deliver more amperage. Pretty simple imho.
The turbine would not provide the peak output of the system, but a lower power figure, with a battery, or some kind of storage, providing the extra power when demanded, and storing the excess when the turbine is providing more than required.
First I've heard that the teams or FIA were considering a four cylinder for 2025/6.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 4:14 amRB-Ford latest update: https://racingnews365.com/exclusive-hor ... owertrainsHorner wrote: "Initially it was going to be a four-cylinder engine and a very different architecture, so it would have been a clean sheet for everybody. Whereas, basically, what we've ended up with is a current engine without the H [MGU-H] and a bigger battery.
"So that gives the incumbents a significant carryover advantage, which we are obviously pedalling hard to catch up."
The irony is that Porsche was competing in the WEC from 2014-2018 with a turbocharged V4....vorticism wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 6:11 pmFirst I've heard that the teams or FIA were considering a four cylinder for 2025/6.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 4:14 amRB-Ford latest update: https://racingnews365.com/exclusive-hor ... owertrainsHorner wrote: "Initially it was going to be a four-cylinder engine and a very different architecture, so it would have been a clean sheet for everybody. Whereas, basically, what we've ended up with is a current engine without the H [MGU-H] and a bigger battery.
"So that gives the incumbents a significant carryover advantage, which we are obviously pedalling hard to catch up."
IS not an mguh is just an electrical machine that produce electricity using gases from exhaust pipes.mguh is much much more than that and more complex and expensive.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 6:16 pmThe irony is that Porsche was competing in the WEC from 2014-2018 with a turbocharged V4....vorticism wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 6:11 pmFirst I've heard that the teams or FIA were considering a four cylinder for 2025/6.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 4:14 amRB-Ford latest update: https://racingnews365.com/exclusive-hor ... owertrains
The discussions were happening at a time when F1 was trying to get Porsche to join....and claimed to reset so that no one had a carry over advantage...despite Porsche having years of experience with a V4, MGU-H and MGU-K
Well, it wasn't clear at all.Zynerji wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:02 pmThat's what I meant by a hysteresis battery.wuzak wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 3:38 pmThe best way to use the turbine in that case is to run it at constant speed (thereby maximising efficiency) and have the electric motor controller respond to the driver's input.Zynerji wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 9:18 pm
My idea was to put the rde between the impeller shell and the exducer shell (where the current turbo designs use a cartridge bearing), with the MGUH connected to the shaft on the impeller end. Something like 600V/300A because of high RPM that would drive electric motors front and rear. In this setup, there would be no battery (maybe small ultracap array for electric hysteresis). As driver demands torque, RPM of the gas generator changes to deliver more amperage. Pretty simple imho.
The turbine would not provide the peak output of the system, but a lower power figure, with a battery, or some kind of storage, providing the extra power when demanded, and storing the excess when the turbine is providing more than required.
That's pretty much what the MGU-H is. A dumb motor on the turbo shaft. The only addition is that it can act as a motor and spin up the turbine, which is trivial.Bill wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:58 amIS not an mguh is just an electrical machine that produce electricity using gases from exhaust pipes.mguh is much much more than that and more complex and expensive.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 6:16 pmThe irony is that Porsche was competing in the WEC from 2014-2018 with a turbocharged V4....
The discussions were happening at a time when F1 was trying to get Porsche to join....and claimed to reset so that no one had a carry over advantage...despite Porsche having years of experience with a V4, MGU-H and MGU-K
I think the complexities lay in the windings and the control strategy. The hardware seems pretty common.mzso wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:49 amThat's pretty much what the MGU-H is. A dumb motor on the turbo shaft. The only addition is that it can act as a motor and spin up the turbine, which is trivial.Bill wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:58 amIS not an mguh is just an electrical machine that produce electricity using gases from exhaust pipes.mguh is much much more than that and more complex and expensive.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 6:16 pm
The irony is that Porsche was competing in the WEC from 2014-2018 with a turbocharged V4....
The discussions were happening at a time when F1 was trying to get Porsche to join....and claimed to reset so that no one had a carry over advantage...despite Porsche having years of experience with a V4, MGU-H and MGU-K
no is not a dumb motor ,it can spin over 200000 rpm and work at a excess temperature of over 1000 degree celcius,it can recover energy ,deploy energy and work to overcome turbo lag .in a nutshell it work in extreme conditions which need high level knowledge in material science and big budget.a jet engine is just a big shaft with lots fans ,a rocket engine is just a hallow tube that burn rocket fuel but we all know is not that simply.Zynerji wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:26 pmI think the complexities lay in the windings and the control strategy. The hardware seems pretty common.
Not impressed. Not at all. Fluid bearings, investment casting water jackets, Tesla cars open patents for best asynchronous motors of all time.Bill wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:56 pmno is not a dumb motor ,it can spin over 200000 rpm and work at a excess temperature of over 1000 degree celcius,it can recover energy ,deploy energy and work to overcome turbo lag .in a nutshell it work in extreme conditions which need high level knowledge in material science and big budget.a jet engine is just a big shaft with lots fans ,a rocket engine is just a hallow tube that burn rocket fuel but we all know is not that simply.