What word from Manor, Campos and USGP?

[Conceptual]

With these teams already having their cars "designed" to the published 2010 regs that they were accepted to compete under, what word from them?

Will FOTA give each team a design from this year? Old parts? Like Super Aguri?

I dunno, If I were these three, I would file a legal action against the FIA for changing the rules after the deal had been made. Maybe get rid of the 2009 regs, and use the 2010 "cap regs" with no budget cap.

Then maybe we could have something to be excited about for 2010, instead of the 2009 cars running till 2012...

[RacingManiac]

With these teams already having their cars "designed" to the published 2010 regs that they were accepted to compete under, what word from them?

Will FOTA give each team a design from this year? Old parts? Like Super Aguri?

I dunno, If I were these three, I would file a legal action against the FIA for changing the rules after the deal had been made. Maybe get rid of the 2009 regs, and use the 2010 "cap regs" with no budget cap.

Then maybe we could have something to be excited about for 2010, instead of the 2009 cars running till 2012...

How did you know they have the cars designed? Conventional wisdom would suggest so, but I seem to recall someone from USF1 saying that they were still waiting on the finalized rule to design the car to....

[Conceptual]

USGP and one of the others (Lola maybe?) said that they already had their first CAD designs done.

I am just wondering if anyone believes that the 3 new teams have a legal leg to beat Max with. It was rather "bait and switch" with published regs and entrant list.

If I were these new teams, I'd be all over the legal aspects because with no cap for 2010, their entire investment of time and money was done because of the published 2010 regs and their ability to compete at a set price.

Now that they have been changed after their application and acceptance, don't they have a legitimate claim to sue the FIA?

Thoughts?

[sticky667]

the FIA have also agreed not to impose the 40M cap. All of these teams were entering based on the feasibility of the new cap.

[modbaraban]

Sorry, but your beloved FIA turned down the entries of those who were more or less prepared. Lola people mentioned having a model running in the wind tunnel for a week before the 2010 competitors list was published. Now it's history.

What we have at the moment is 'teams' like Manor who aren't sure yet who's to design and build their F1 car with active aero, unrestricted 30krpm Corsworth engine, 4WD/unlimited KERS, CVT, 4-wheel steering, nano-transforming-plasma-cryptonite-body all equipped with revolving AD-boards only for 39 995k.

[RacingManiac]

USGP and one of the others (Lola maybe?) said that they already had their first CAD designs done.

I am just wondering if anyone believes that the 3 new teams have a legal leg to beat Max with. It was rather "bait and switch" with published regs and entrant list.

If I were these new teams, I'd be all over the legal aspects because with no cap for 2010, their entire investment of time and money was done because of the published 2010 regs and their ability to compete at a set price.

Now that they have been changed after their application and acceptance, don't they have a legitimate claim to sue the FIA?

Thoughts?

CAD=no capital expenditure....if they have had molds made then I'd be more seriously considering crying foul....

[Conceptual]

My question is about exactly that. Crying foul.

If the entrants view their entry and acceptance as a contract to compete, do they have any legal legs to fight back with.

And Mod,

What is your deal man? It is not my "beloved FIA" nor is the most killer set of rules in F1's history a 39,995K investment. The 45MEUR could easily purchase off the shelf parts from various places, and build the rest to get a car to 2010 budget spec. Especially if they can start with a 2 year old chassis (or a 2006 Williams for the Cosworth integration).

Do you have anything but hate and your opinion to contribute to this discussion? Because if that is all you have, it ain't worth your effort.

[sticky667]

Sorry, but your beloved FIA turned down the entries of those who were more or less prepared. Lola people mentioned having a model running in the wind tunnel for a week before the 2010 competitors list was published. Now it's history.

What we have at the moment is 'teams' like Manor who aren't sure yet who's to design and build their F1 car with active aero, unrestricted 30krpm Corsworth engine, 4WD/unlimited KERS, CVT, 4-wheel steering, nano-transforming-plasma-cryptonite-body all equipped with revolving AD-boards only for 39 995k.

mind you none of these rules are in line with the extension of the 2009 regs already confirmed.

[spacepig]

CAD=no capital expenditure....if they have had molds made then I'd be more seriously considering crying foul....

Yeah, because people work for free. Seriously, 3 months of wasted engineering and analysis time is way, way more expensive than a chassis mold.

[ESPImperium]

I thought Prodrive or Lola had engineeded a car to the 2009 specs and another in CAD to the 2010 specs. I think they were all designed, just awaiting the rulling and then pulling the trigger on the one that will go to CFD and the windmill factory for each team.

EDIT: Im shure that a couple of the FOTA teams may allot the new teams a hand with CFD power or Windtunnel time at their facilitys.

[RacingManiac]

CAD=no capital expenditure....if they have had molds made then I'd be more seriously considering crying foul....

Yeah, because people work for free. Seriously, 3 months of wasted engineering and analysis time is way, way more expensive than a chassis mold.

You are not going to have 3 month of work completely wasted, you just need to modify your design. You are still using the same engine, you are still using the same suspension parts, and god help you if you decided to start designing your 4wd KERS and active aero on your first ever F1 car as the FIRST thing you do, because you'll have bigger problem. Its not as if you are designing a car for Le Mans and they say you have to race off road.....if you have your chassis mold cut, it is COMPLETELY wasted....

[modbaraban]

And Mod,

What is your deal man? It is not my "beloved FIA" nor is the most killer set of rules in F1's history a 39,995K investment. The 45MEUR could easily purchase off the shelf parts from various places, and build the rest to get a car to 2010 budget spec. Especially if they can start with a 2 year old chassis (or a 2006 Williams for the Cosworth integration).

Do you have anything but hate and your opinion to contribute to this discussion? Because if that is all you have, it ain't worth your effort.

My name's not the one here to be put in the same line with the word 'hate'.

I see budget-cap rules as hilarious. You can't just go ahead and buy some second hand stuff for your deeply innovative Formula1 car. Look at the active front wing thingy. Many teams didn't even bother brining one to Albert Park. Look at that EPIC KERS thing. Wasting billions didn't get them anywhere, while all they had to do is adapt the old technology for F1. Expecting them to have real technological advancement under the budget cap is just... erm. You name it.

PS: I'm not denying the right of those 3 new entrants to sue FIA for chaning the rules at this point. They actually entered a GP2 championship with some cheap promises (for the fans) attached, then it suddenly became F1 again.

[spacepig]

You are not going to have 3 month of work completely wasted, you just need to modify your design. You are still using the same engine, you are still using the same suspension parts, and god help you if you decided to start designing your 4wd KERS and active aero on your first ever F1 car as the FIRST thing you do, because you'll have bigger problem.

Is refueling on or off for next year? Does anyone know? I've heard it both ways. Is Cosworth limited to 18k? The first question is a major, major design consideration that affects everything: wheelbase, aero, suspension geometry, etc. Designing a car around 60 gallons of fuel requires a completely different concept than designing one around 20.

And if Cosworth has to run 18k RPM, most of these guys are probably on the phone to Toyota, BMW, Renault and Ferrari. The Cosworth makes a lot less sense if it's hobbled and without the money to bring it up to date.

I agree about the KERS, none of the new teams would have been running it next year anyway.

Anyway, the point was that the chassis mold is relatively inexpensive considered on its own. The design work that it represents costs a lot more.

[gibells]

Regarding next years rules, I think they actually mean the rules for 2010 that were agreed prior to the 29th April.

"There will be no alternative series or Championship and the rules for 2010 onwards will be the 2009 regulations as well as further regulations agreed prior to 29 April 2009"

So I think that means no refuelling and no tyre warmers, but the rest the same.

discuss...

[RacingManiac]

I also recalled pretty clearly that Brawn noted that regardless which championship they run the no-refueling rule is unlikely to change....

Keep in mind that its not just the new team who is designing the car, the FOTA teams are too, and they should be at least as far as the new comer, if not further(quite frankly I am skeptical as to exactly how far they've come, considering, USF1 was in the market for kinematic and dynamic simulation software from Optimum G back in March, which to me seems kinda late especially if you are designing your first F1 car....), so major changes will hamper their progress as well...