What word from Manor, Campos and USGP?

[WhiteBlue]

If you were offended by my use of the word paranoid, my sincerest apologies.

Apology accepted. Since there are no new facts in your last post I suggest that we will watch the further developments around the new teams evolve and compare notes about the actions.

After all, were it not for Renault, Mercedes, Ferrari and Toyota there would be no independent teams in F1 today. What’s more, Brawn, Red Bull and Williams are all as competitive and, as we’ve seen from Red Bull and Brawn this year, significantly more successful than their factory partners.

That is over streching the truth a bit IMO. If the manufacturer teams had it their way the price of engines would still be 30-40 mil $ per season. And the competitiveness of Brawn versus the lack of competitiveness of the manufacturers is down to a very strange decision of the ICA. Red Bull is competitive because they have designed a very good car on merit. I do not think that the Renault engine or manufacturer restraint in using economic power has helped Red Bull. Red Bull was good with and without DDD.

[FGD]

If you were offended by my use of the word paranoid, my sincerest apologies.

Apology accepted. Since there are no new facts in your last post I suggest that we will watch the further developments around the new teams evolve and compare notes about the actions.

After all, were it not for Renault, Mercedes, Ferrari and Toyota there would be no independent teams in F1 today. What’s more, Brawn, Red Bull and Williams are all as competitive and, as we’ve seen from Red Bull and Brawn this year, significantly more successful than their factory partners.

That is over streching the truth a bit IMO. If the manufacturer teams had it their way the price of engines would still be 30-40 mil $ per season. And the competitiveness of Brawn versus the lack of competitiveness of the manufacturers is down to a very strange decision of the ICA. Red Bull is competitive because they have designed a very good car on merit. I do not think that the Renault engine or manufacturer restraint in using economic power has helped Red Bull. Red Bull was good with and without DDD.

Comparing the 30 to 60 million independent teams used to pay for a seasons worth of manufacturer engines just a few years ago to today’s rates is comparing apple to oranges. A few years ago, teams ran unique qualifying, practice and race engines - all designed specifically to perform best on whatever track they were racing. Remember how often teams used to change engines over a race weekend? Remember the days of the “Monza” and “Hockenheim” specific engines? And after completing each race, the used engines were tossed out like yesterday’s newspaper. Those days are gone and the lower cost of customer engines has to do with the reduction of waste in F1 - something all manufacturers agreed to do as necessary cost-savings a few years ago.

You mention the success of Red Bull whom are using Renault engines. I believe that for Renault, Mercedes and Toyota, it is a benefit to have ANY car with their engines running at the front. I’m sure Renault would prefer to have their factory effort at the top but I’m confident Renault management are at least somewhat pleased to see their names at the top of the rostrum at the end of a race.

And Ferrari? Well, if there’s any case for a manufacturer not giving an engine partner equal billing, they are most guilty. But I think they also have the most to lose by having a customer team beat them with their own engines.

Aside from all this, I think we may have a fundamental difference of opinion when it comes to why we love F1. I’ve followed F1 for decades. I attended my first race in Long Beach, 1982 and was hooked ever since. I keep watching and religiously follow the sport today because I want to see Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, Toyota and BMW fight it out. I couldn’t care less about the new teams and if F1 had just Ferrari, Renault, BMW, Toyota and Mercedes and no independents, I’d still love and follow F1.

[WhiteBlue]

I do agree that we have a different point of view. I remember the first races I watched were in the sixties and early seventies when my dad (a big Clark fan) set the telly and allowed us to join him for race reports. It got me interested and I followed F1 loosely ever since. I watched a few races in Silverstone and Indianapolis and have missed very few races on telly since 1991.

I have a firm reference what F1 was before large corporations poured billions into it and made life difficult for some pretty good race teams like Tyrell, Jordan, Stewart, Williams and Sauber. Eventually none of those teams could exist and compete alone even at the upper mid field without obscene amounts of money. Hence the lively F1 scene degenerated to a corporate wine and dine me hospitality orgy.

With the right kind of rules involving more technical freedom and budget limitations we could see the rise of new teams like Jordan once again. I confess I'm all for it. I am totally opposed to killing teams like Super Aguri who made very clever use of restricted resources and beat their parent company to the checkered flag. It shows that the underdog can achieve great things if the playing field isn't tilted entirely to the advantage of the fat cats.

In my view FOTA still has to show that they appreciate fair competition and a good sporting environment in F1. Anybody who wants to contemplate 3rd cars instead of inviting competition from teams that can make the jump from lower formulae to F1 is very suspicious to me. The constant bad mouthing of new teams as F3 and F4 has not impressed me as a good approach to the right sporting spirit.

[FGD]

I guess I’ve accepted the concept of F1 being a playground for the biggest boys on the block. As far as adding new teams is concerned, I’m all for it. I’d love to see Porsche return, along with Honda, Jaguar, Ford, so on and so forth.

The sport has lost great competitors and personalities like Colin Chapman and Ken Tyrell and I wonder if we might lose Williams some day as well. But the sport marches on, invariably changing from what we knew and into something new and different.

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.manipef1.com/news/articles/9576/

The [2006] Cosworth engine uses clearly more fuel than the current engines,” Head is quoted as saying by Auto Motor und Sport. “The cars will have to carry 15 kilograms more [fuel] for a race distance. That means half a second on the lap time and higher tyre wear,”

I wonder how this situation will be approached. Renault received special treatment in a simillar situation. What will be done for Cosworth to get them on a level with the other engines.

[Ciro Pabón]

Just out of curiosity (really!): could you explain a little what was the treatment Renault received under those circumstances?

[Dom77]

http://www.manipef1.com/news/articles/9576/

The [2006] Cosworth engine uses clearly more fuel than the current engines,” Head is quoted as saying by Auto Motor und Sport. “The cars will have to carry 15 kilograms more [fuel] for a race distance. That means half a second on the lap time and higher tyre wear,”

I wonder how this situation will be approached. Renault received special treatment in a simillar situation. What will be done for Cosworth to get them on a level with the other engines.

Theirs one way to level the playing field its called money and resources which cosworth dont have, thats why they couldnt change their engine in time!

Unless the other big teams chip in with a few million & manpower LOL Start the donation!

[WhiteBlue]

Just out of curiosity (really!): could you explain a little what was the treatment Renault received under those circumstances?

Actually I don't know what they were allowed to do. But an adjustment was allowed by the FIA last autumn or winter. I do not believe that we were ever told what the adjustment actually was. The result was that Renault had a more powerfull engine. So either there was an adjustment of revs or a technology transfer.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/11/11/f ... ines-poll/

FOTA has actually lobbied for equal engine power as the above article confirms. Honda left F1 before the decision was taken, but Renault received the power adjustment.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pr ... ech09.aspx

Charlie Whiting mentioned the adjustment but not what it was.

In terms of performance gains, can you say what has been allowed for the teams, especially for Renault?

CW: As you know, I can’t really give you confidential information. But we gave all the teams the opportunity to submit a list of things they would like to change in order to achieve engine parity, because there seemed to be some disparity between engine performance, which was not intended. Then, with Honda’s withdrawal – they appeared to be the ones down on power – the engine manufacturers agreed among themselves that they would not seek any engine parity changes, and they would allow Renault to do something. It’s what I would describe as a minor upgrade. It’s a one-off thing; it’s not an on-going thing. Now, teams have submitted their list; we’ve agreed to it and that’s the end of it until 2012.

From this description it rather sounds like Renault was allowed to make a technical change in the design of the engine. It isn't clear how they arrived at the change. It could have been their own development or something they got from another FOTA manufacturer.

My point is that the engine parity philosophy should be applied to Cosworth as well. And the parity should be achieved in the most cost efficient way to prevent the failure of the 2010 Cosworth project. It is not in the interest of independant teams if Cosworth is pushed into costs they cannot economically bear.

[Conceptual]

If this is all the balls that these teams have after signing up to compete under one set of rules, and then having them changed afterward, I don't expect much from them in 2010.

Especially Williams and FIF1.

[ISLAMATRON]

before a team changed their engines during the freeze(for reliability or cost cutting reasons only...BS!) they had to submit those changes to the FIA.. I believe i read somewhere that Renault was given a copy of those changes and allowed to incorporate them if they wished in order to bring them up to spec

[WhiteBlue]

They should give that complete package of communications to Cosworth so that they can update their engines to that level. That would avoid some of the issues that arise from a different rpm limit.

[bjpower]

why not just buy the rights from honda?
the ecu is standard so i assume there is no major IP in the f1 engines that would translate to there road cars?

[Conceptual]

2006 Cosworth > 2008 Honda IMHO.

[timbo]

http://pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news ... t_id=38324

another insight on Manor situation

[Fil]

Campos has now announced it is expecting to reveal their first driver at Valencia GP in about 6 weeks.
Rumours suggest Pedro De La Rosa.


Their car is in the windtunnel next week apparently too..