2023 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:26 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 5:29 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 1:17 pm
I wonder if there could possibly be a Nissan tie in?
If Honda see F1 as a good option, as do more German makers, and Renault/Nissan already have a tie up?
I could see a "cheap" Nissan sale, but Honda has plenty of $ to buy any team they would want (including the IP, even if none of it is used...)
Not sure why we're even talking about this. It doesn't make sense. Why would Honda spend 1 billion € on Alpine to then throw away Chatillion-Viry and build their power units in Japan? They could just apply for a new team for just €500 million? Ain't no "cheap" in F1.
Exactly. Zero sense.

All things point to Alpine remaining as it were.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:47 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:26 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 5:29 pm


I could see a "cheap" Nissan sale, but Honda has plenty of $ to buy any team they would want (including the IP, even if none of it is used...)
Not sure why we're even talking about this. It doesn't make sense. Why would Honda spend 1 billion € on Alpine to then throw away Chatillion-Viry and build their power units in Japan? They could just apply for a new team for just €500 million? Ain't no "cheap" in F1.
Exactly. Zero sense.

All things point to Alpine remaining as it were.
Meh. Chatillion-Viry hasn't built a class of the field engine since 2006. 🙄 Even the 4 WDC with RBR was obvious that the aero won it. Can just buy for the data. Even better would be to buy the Alpine IP, and directly use it for production cars so the Honda IP stays secret...🤣

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diffuser
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Location: Montreal

Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:08 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:47 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:26 pm


Not sure why we're even talking about this. It doesn't make sense. Why would Honda spend 1 billion € on Alpine to then throw away Chatillion-Viry and build their power units in Japan? They could just apply for a new team for just €500 million? Ain't no "cheap" in F1.
Exactly. Zero sense.

All things point to Alpine remaining as it were.
Meh. Chatillion-Viry hasn't built a class of the field engine since 2006. 🙄 Even the 4 WDC with RBR was obvious that the aero won it. Can just buy for the data. Even better would be to buy the Alpine IP, and directly use it for production cars so the Honda IP stays secret...🤣
Again, I don't know where you're going with this. Chatillion-Viry weaknesses have always been financial investment not ability....It took Honda 3 years to get the front compressor rear turbine turbo with the MGU-H in the middle to work. The first 2 years, they had many failures. They eventually had to get Honda's aeronautics division involved. Chatillion-Viry made the switch in 2022 and haven't had a single problem with that. Given the equivalent investment, I'm sure they'd be right there. Since there is a CAP on the PUs now, I don't think they'll have problems being competitive. Remember Honda wanted to pull out of F1 in 2020 cause they tired of injecting the funds that they needed for the F1 engine project. They only stayed cause of the freeze. So Renault weren't the only ones that had issues with costs of the past F1 engine projects. You talk like Honda has a bottomless pit of funds but they don't. They have financial obligations to investors like everyone else.

Bill
Bill
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:30 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:08 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:47 pm


Exactly. Zero sense.

All things point to Alpine remaining as it were.
Meh. Chatillion-Viry hasn't built a class of the field engine since 2006. 🙄 Even the 4 WDC with RBR was obvious that the aero won it. Can just buy for the data. Even better would be to buy the Alpine IP, and directly use it for production cars so the Honda IP stays secret...🤣
Again, I don't know where you're going with this. Chatillion-Viry weaknesses have always been financial investment not ability....It took Honda 3 years to get the front compressor rear turbine turbo with the MGU-H in the middle to work. The first 2 years, they had many failures. They eventually had to get Honda's aeronautics devision involved. Chatillion-Viry made the switch in 2022 and haven't had a single problem with that. Given the equivalent investment, I'm sure they'd be right there.
It is such nonsence to say rbr won 4 wdc just because of aero i think it is the curse of driving a newey car only he gets credits.the british media will make sure of that and people will believe them.when redbull drooped a powerful ferrari for a renault it was because it was compact and powerful.the renault engine mapping helped the redbull aero in team of blown diffuser without they will not have won.

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Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:30 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:08 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:47 pm


Exactly. Zero sense.

All things point to Alpine remaining as it were.
Meh. Chatillion-Viry hasn't built a class of the field engine since 2006. 🙄 Even the 4 WDC with RBR was obvious that the aero won it. Can just buy for the data. Even better would be to buy the Alpine IP, and directly use it for production cars so the Honda IP stays secret...🤣
Again, I don't know where you're going with this. Chatillion-Viry weaknesses have always been financial investment not ability....It took Honda 3 years to get the front compressor rear turbine turbo with the MGU-H in the middle to work. The first 2 years, they had many failures. They eventually had to get Honda's aeronautics division involved. Chatillion-Viry made the switch in 2022 and haven't had a single problem with that. Given the equivalent investment, I'm sure they'd be right there. Since there is a CAP on the PUs now, I don't think they'll have problems being competitive. Remember Honda wanted to pull out of F1 in 2020 cause they tired of injecting the funds that they needed for the F1 engine project. They only stayed cause of the freeze. So Renault weren't the only ones that had issues with costs of the past F1 engine projects. You talk like Honda has a bottomless pit of funds but they don't. They have financial obligations to investors like everyone else.
GP2 tier at best.

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Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:59 am
diffuser wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:30 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:08 pm


Meh. Chatillion-Viry hasn't built a class of the field engine since 2006. 🙄 Even the 4 WDC with RBR was obvious that the aero won it. Can just buy for the data. Even better would be to buy the Alpine IP, and directly use it for production cars so the Honda IP stays secret...🤣
Again, I don't know where you're going with this. Chatillion-Viry weaknesses have always been financial investment not ability....It took Honda 3 years to get the front compressor rear turbine turbo with the MGU-H in the middle to work. The first 2 years, they had many failures. They eventually had to get Honda's aeronautics devision involved. Chatillion-Viry made the switch in 2022 and haven't had a single problem with that. Given the equivalent investment, I'm sure they'd be right there.
It is such nonsence to say rbr won 4 wdc just because of aero i think it is the curse of driving a newey car only he gets credits.the british media will make sure of that and people will believe them.when redbull drooped a powerful ferrari for a renault it was because it was compact and powerful.the renault engine mapping helped the redbull aero in team of blown diffuser without they will not have won.
It was all aero. The Merc was by far the better engine.

Viry could close tomorrow, and F1 would only lose a has been.

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Big Tea
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:33 am
Bill wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:59 am
diffuser wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:30 am


Again, I don't know where you're going with this. Chatillion-Viry weaknesses have always been financial investment not ability....It took Honda 3 years to get the front compressor rear turbine turbo with the MGU-H in the middle to work. The first 2 years, they had many failures. They eventually had to get Honda's aeronautics devision involved. Chatillion-Viry made the switch in 2022 and haven't had a single problem with that. Given the equivalent investment, I'm sure they'd be right there.
It is such nonsence to say rbr won 4 wdc just because of aero i think it is the curse of driving a newey car only he gets credits.the british media will make sure of that and people will believe them.when redbull drooped a powerful ferrari for a renault it was because it was compact and powerful.the renault engine mapping helped the redbull aero in team of blown diffuser without they will not have won.
It was all aero. The Merc was by far the better engine.

Viry could close tomorrow, and F1 would only lose a has been.

What was it Coulthard said about being called a has-been?

If the alternatives are wannabee or never was I'm fine with that?
They are past champions after all
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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diffuser
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:33 am
Bill wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:59 am
diffuser wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:30 am


Again, I don't know where you're going with this. Chatillion-Viry weaknesses have always been financial investment not ability....It took Honda 3 years to get the front compressor rear turbine turbo with the MGU-H in the middle to work. The first 2 years, they had many failures. They eventually had to get Honda's aeronautics devision involved. Chatillion-Viry made the switch in 2022 and haven't had a single problem with that. Given the equivalent investment, I'm sure they'd be right there.
It is such nonsence to say rbr won 4 wdc just because of aero i think it is the curse of driving a newey car only he gets credits.the british media will make sure of that and people will believe them.when redbull drooped a powerful ferrari for a renault it was because it was compact and powerful.the renault engine mapping helped the redbull aero in team of blown diffuser without they will not have won.
It was all aero. The Merc was by far the better engine.

Viry could close tomorrow, and F1 would only lose a has been.
Measured how? The Renault was doing all this stuff with off throttle exhaust gasses that would generate DF in off throttle corners. The cold blowing that also gave redbull alot if it's DF, Renault designed and executed. The Merc might have had more power but the Renault did many others things better than the Merc.

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Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:40 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:33 am
Bill wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:59 am


It is such nonsence to say rbr won 4 wdc just because of aero i think it is the curse of driving a newey car only he gets credits.the british media will make sure of that and people will believe them.when redbull drooped a powerful ferrari for a renault it was because it was compact and powerful.the renault engine mapping helped the redbull aero in team of blown diffuser without they will not have won.
It was all aero. The Merc was by far the better engine.

Viry could close tomorrow, and F1 would only lose a has been.
Measured how? The Renault was doing all this stuff with off throttle exhaust gasses that would generate DF in off throttle corners. The cold blowing that also gave redbull alot if it's DF, Renault designed and executed. The Merc might have had more power but the Renault did many others things better than the Merc.
Redbull did lots of in-house development on the Renault engine through their championship run. I don't think any of the glory is deserved by Viry those years.

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diffuser
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 7:39 pm
diffuser wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:40 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:33 am


It was all aero. The Merc was by far the better engine.

Viry could close tomorrow, and F1 would only lose a has been.
Measured how? The Renault was doing all this stuff with off throttle exhaust gasses that would generate DF in off throttle corners. The cold blowing that also gave redbull alot if it's DF, Renault designed and executed. The Merc might have had more power but the Renault did many others things better than the Merc.
Redbull did lots of in-house development on the Renault engine through their championship run. I don't think any of the glory is deserved by Viry those years.
All that stuff happened later, after the relationship had soured. While they were winning, everything was peachy. They did work closely together to give RBR the aero needs it was looking for. It was Renault that did all the PU work.

I don't know for sure but I suspect that all that stuff about TAG or whoever modifying the PU was BS. It's like when a F1 team has a fuel Sponsor. It doesn't mean they actually use their fuel. Imagine RBR modifying Honda PU. They don't have the IP and aren't allowed to unsealed the PUs.

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peewon
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Its an open secret that Renault is stingy with investment. But the reality is they are not on the same level as others almost a decade into the hybrid PU era. The fact that RB jumped from an almost exclusive supply deal with Renault to Honda mid regulations speaks volumes. Even in the V8 era, they were not the most powerful (might've been the weakest in terms of power) and had a history of reliability issues with the alternators and KERS systems. Alternators were a stock part and the KERS reliability issues were in part due to how the batteries were packed between the engine and the gearbox for aero optimization. The off throttle exhaust blowing was co developed with RB.

So to summarize....

The V8 era success was largely down to a great chassis. The problems with the PU were not all Renault's fault but the performance was not class leading in way.

In the hybrid era, they started miles behind Merc and still haven't caught up in a decade.

In conclusion....

Viry has never proven that they are capable of producing class leading power units. Maybe they are, maybe they arent. Its impossible to know if its down to competence of staff at Viry or various extenuating circumstances like lack of funding but there simply is no track record of Viry producing tier I power units .

Bill
Bill
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2023 3:20 am
Its an open secret that Renault is stingy with investment. But the reality is they are not on the same level as others almost a decade into the hybrid PU era. The fact that RB jumped from an almost exclusive supply deal with Renault to Honda mid regulations speaks volumes. Even in the V8 era, they were not the most powerful (might've been the weakest in terms of power) and had a history of reliability issues with the alternators and KERS systems. Alternators were a stock part and the KERS reliability issues were in part due to how the batteries were packed between the engine and the gearbox for aero optimization. The off throttle exhaust blowing was co developed with RB.

So to summarize....

The V8 era success was largely down to a great chassis. The problems with the PU were not all Renault's fault but the performance was not class leading in way.

In the hybrid era, they started miles behind Merc and still haven't caught up in a decade.

In conclusion....

Viry has never proven that they are capable of producing class leading power units. Maybe they are, maybe they arent. Its impossible to know if its down to competence of staff at Viry or various extenuating circumstances like lack of funding but there simply is no track record of Viry producing tier I power units .
Viry has never proven that they are capable of producing class leading power units.? They invented the turbo one of the most important innovation in car industry and have many successes in f1 even before redbull .they even won with Alonso thats recent history .williams too

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peewon
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2023 6:29 am
peewon wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2023 3:20 am
Its an open secret that Renault is stingy with investment. But the reality is they are not on the same level as others almost a decade into the hybrid PU era. The fact that RB jumped from an almost exclusive supply deal with Renault to Honda mid regulations speaks volumes. Even in the V8 era, they were not the most powerful (might've been the weakest in terms of power) and had a history of reliability issues with the alternators and KERS systems. Alternators were a stock part and the KERS reliability issues were in part due to how the batteries were packed between the engine and the gearbox for aero optimization. The off throttle exhaust blowing was co developed with RB.

So to summarize....

The V8 era success was largely down to a great chassis. The problems with the PU were not all Renault's fault but the performance was not class leading in way.

In the hybrid era, they started miles behind Merc and still haven't caught up in a decade.

In conclusion....

Viry has never proven that they are capable of producing class leading power units. Maybe they are, maybe they arent. Its impossible to know if its down to competence of staff at Viry or various extenuating circumstances like lack of funding but there simply is no track record of Viry producing tier I power units .
Viry has never proven that they are capable of producing class leading power units.? They invented the turbo one of the most important innovation in car industry and have many successes in f1 even before redbull .they even won with Alonso thats recent history .williams too
Already talked about the V8's but even Alonso's titles were down to a very consistent driver, a great chassis, some clever innovations like the mass damper and launch control and competitors being unreliable. None of those are down to Viry producing a benchmark engine.

By the end of 2008 there was a significant performance differential between certain F1 engines so the FIA ruled that Renault, which had been left behind, would be allowed to retune its engine to bring it up to the level of the others.

The same complaint was made in the autumn of 2009 and the FIA was petitioned again to allow ‘engine re-equalization’. Christian Horner told Autosport in Monza, “The FIA has all the information they can see where the differences are on, I don’t think it is a coincidence that you have three Mercedes-powered teams that dominated six out of the top seven places in qualifying and looked dominant again here in the race today”.

Not going to address the point for which we have to go back a 100 years to whats relevant now.

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FW17
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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If Alpine were short of funds, they should have sold more sponsorship.

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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FW17 wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:30 pm
If Alpine were short of funds, they should have sold more sponsorship.

They were short hundreds of millions of Euros.

I don't remember all the numbers but from what I remember reading Renault/Alpine were budgeting less for both the chassis and the PU that RBR were spending on just the chassis. That's all changed now going forward. They all can reach the CAP. There is no more of this Merc getting started early and outspending everyone. So really How good Alpine is, we'll see. They'll have no more excuses.