Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Farnborough
Farnborough
62
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:15 pm

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

Cut from here https://ferraris-online.com/cars/1989-f ... o-639-106/ and shows complete text.

My interest is from watching this era in contemporary status and siting from my memory and that acquired knowledge. The 639 as far as I understood it from that time was pure Barnard in its total new and narrow monocoque, very specifically without gearchange mechanical space alongside the driver.

Monocoque is very obviously significantly different in proportion to the predecessor of 87/88/Muletta iterations of testing in my appreciation of it.

This thread is about translation of Barnards words by the OP saviour stivala. I'm unsure of your motivation here about this detail.

Farnborough
Farnborough
62
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:15 pm

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

That site does include definitive statement about the 639 too

"The Tipo 639 was designed by John Barnard, credited with both the introduction of the revolutionary seven-speed semi-automatic F-1 paddle shifter gearbox and the carbon fiber composite chassis. Barnard, who had joined Ferrari from McLaren at the end of the 1986 season, had begun designing the car in 1987 with the intent of competing in the 1988 season. However, continual problems with the 639 and later 640’s revolutionary semi-automatic gearbox saw the team forced to use the turbocharged F1/87/88C in 1988, with the 639 and 640 debut pushed back to 1989, the first year of FISA’s 3.5 Litre atmospheric only formula. The all-new semi-automatic gearbox was initially problematic but the problem proved to be a lack of battery power which was resolved in mid-1989 by the electrical experts from Magneti Marelli. The development work and testing program for F1 Tipo 639 s/n 106 was conducted at Ferrari’s private test track Fiorano by Factory drivers Nigel Mansell, Gerhard Berger and test driver Roberto Moreno during 1988 and into 1989. Indeed, the seat in s/n 106 is signed and dated 22 Jan., 1989 by Mansell."

Clear in my reading of that.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
50
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

CMSMJ1 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 3:14 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:16 am
1988 FERRARI 639 prototype of which only two were made. One, s/n 106 (the second of only two factory tipo 639 prototypes and test cars build for FISA's 1989 3.5-litre atmospheric formula). F1 tipo 639 s/n 106 was used to test FERRARI's all new tipo 035 3.5-litre engine (685 bhp @ 13k rpm). Was retained by the factory from 1988 to 1999, and was then sold by FERRARI SPA to the first and only owner in Reggio Emilia, it was supplied with and certified, engine tipo 035/5 number 20 and 7 speed FI shift transaxle tipo 639 number 5.
That reads like a cut/paste - can you please cite these sources if this is the case?
"FERRARI online- 1989 FERRARI F1 tipo 639 number 106 for sale" Just google and read. A note. Those involved - ''Michael and Colleen Sheehan".

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
50
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

Farnborough wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:40 pm
That site does include definitive statement about the 639 too

"The Tipo 639 was designed by John Barnard, credited with both the introduction of the revolutionary seven-speed semi-automatic F-1 paddle shifter gearbox and the carbon fiber composite chassis. Barnard, who had joined Ferrari from McLaren at the end of the 1986 season, had begun designing the car in 1987 with the intent of competing in the 1988 season. However, continual problems with the 639 and later 640’s revolutionary semi-automatic gearbox saw the team forced to use the turbocharged F1/87/88C in 1988, with the 639 and 640 debut pushed back to 1989, the first year of FISA’s 3.5 Litre atmospheric only formula. The all-new semi-automatic gearbox was initially problematic but the problem proved to be a lack of battery power which was resolved in mid-1989 by the electrical experts from Magneti Marelli. The development work and testing program for F1 Tipo 639 s/n 106 was conducted at Ferrari’s private test track Fiorano by Factory drivers Nigel Mansell, Gerhard Berger and test driver Roberto Moreno during 1988 and into 1989. Indeed, the seat in s/n 106 is signed and dated 22 Jan., 1989 by Mansell."

Clear in my reading of that.
Barnard first FERRARI F1 car design was the FERRARI 640.

Farnborough
Farnborough
62
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:15 pm

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

There seems little point in contaminating a interesting and original thread with your truculent attitude towards the topic savior stivala.

It's written conclusively both on the Internet accessible information and within the John Barnard book that you are emphatically wrong, the type 639 Ferrari is his design.

If it means that much to you and the growing axis of personal inferiority complex you persist in bringing to this thread, likely you'll find yourself in a lone discussion.

But you are, nevertheless wrong in this instance :D

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
50
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

When I said that Barnard's first FERRARI design was the 640 I was meaning to say that Barnard's first FERRARI design that raced/competed during a formula one season was the FERRARI 640. While I honestly apologize for not making myself properly clear, I fully stand with what I said re-the FERRARI 639, Namely that only two were produced as a 'test mule/test car and that neither of the two ever raced in competition. Besides all that, Ferrari was also forced to use the 'Brunner' designed
F1/87/88C as a test car/test mule for the new 3.5-litre V-12 and 7-speed semi-automatic gearbox. A note re-the Ferrari 639. FERRARI never intended to race the 639, in fact only two were ever produced to be used as a test car/mule.
Last edited by saviour stivala on Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

EvilPhil II
EvilPhil II
6
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:21 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

During 1988, there was a political fight within Ferrari's technical team that led to the creation of two test cars: the Ferrari F88A and the Ferrari 639.

The F88A was powered by a manual V12 engine, while the 639 was powered by a semi-automatic V12 engine. The 639 also featured a new suspension system and aerodynamics package.

The two cars were never raced, but they were both used to develop technology that would be used in future Ferrari Formula One cars

The unraced John Barnard's Ferrari 639 of 1988 testing with N. Mansell, R. Moreno, D. Benuzzi and G. Berger.
https://twitter.com/VicarioMartin/statu ... 41/photo/3
https://www.goodwood.com/grr/f1/video-t ... en-before/

The Ferrari 88A v12 was instructed to be made by Enzo Ferrari's successor in 1988 because he was nervous about the new semi-automatic gearbox reliability.
https://twitter.com/Kevin_Sturgess/stat ... 3944620032
https://twitter.com/UnracedF1/status/16 ... 6054123521

Upon witnessing Nigel Mansell's recent Goodwood Ferrari run, an immediate impression struck me: the car wasn't the race-winning machine it was portrayed as, but rather the 1988 test car, the 639. Its aesthetic falls short of the 640 race car's grace, with an imbalance in its lines. It is noticeable if you observe the shape of the rearview mirrors on both cars.

Image

Some great interviews about here:
Especially about the politics following the death of Enzo in 1988.
33:49min


F1 Design Legend John Barnard | Beyond The Grid | Official F1 Podcast
"I mean you put everything on the line time you you you, say okay my contract says I've got full technical control of Ferrari racing" - Barnard
02:09min


Podcast: John Barnard | Engineering the Greats

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
50
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

So after all that have been said/opinions pushed forward on this very enjoyable and interesting piece of history discussion and after 'some unfortunate ego induced anger' have been 'fired', thanks to all involved, the correct facts as happened shows that late in 1988 FERRARI build two prototypes under the F1 moniker (the 639) for testing their intended 3.5-litre 5-valve per-cylinder V-12 engine and semi-automatic transaxle which were never raced or intended to be raced, that is besides the fact that they also used their F1/87/88C chassis to test "just" their said new V12 engine coupled with their normal back than 6-speed manual transaxle. All this proves the fact that Barnard's FERRARI first 'F1 race car design (the F1-89 '640' was his first FERRARI F1 car design to have started a formula one season.

EvilPhil II
EvilPhil II
6
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:21 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:19 am
All this proves the fact that Barnard's FERRARI first 'F1 race car design (the F1-89 '640' was his first FERRARI F1 car design to have started a formula one season.

That is how it turned out. However, what I find most fascinating is that Ferrari intended to race the V12 639 in 1988. It was only reliability that prevented them from doing so.

I wonder if they had raced it if McLaren Honda would have had a harder time that year.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
50
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

I, and this is a personal opinion, do not know if Ferrari ever intended to race the 639 'mule'. If they had intensions to race said model ''1988/639 mule'' they would not build just 2 as late in 1988.
Last edited by saviour stivala on Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

EvilPhil II
EvilPhil II
6
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:21 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:04 pm
I, and this is a personal opinion, do not know if Ferrari ever intended to race the 639 'mule'. If they had intensions to race said model ''1988/639 mule'' they would not build just 2 as late in 1988.
Watch the interviews with the designer. All is revealed.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
50
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

EvilPhil II wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:49 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:04 pm
I, and this is a personal opinion, do not know if Ferrari ever intended to race the 639 'mule'. If they had intensions to race said model ''1988/639 mule'' they would not build just 2 as late in 1988.
Watch the interviews with the designer. All is revealed.
OK. So initially it was hoped that the V-12 car would make it's race debut in 1988 season, but because of continual problems with the semi-automatic gearbox, the team was forced to use F1/87/88C for all of 1988. A modified version of the F1/87/88C was initially used as a test mule for the new V-12 engine and the semi-automatic gearbox until the FERRARI 639 test car first arrived for testing in late 1988.

User avatar
JordanMugen
82
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

Farnborough wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:40 pm
"The Tipo 639 was designed by John Barnard, credited with both the introduction of the revolutionary seven-speed semi-automatic F-1 paddle shifter gearbox and the carbon fiber composite chassis. Barnard, who had joined Ferrari from McLaren at the end of the 1986 season, had begun designing the car in 1987 with the intent of competing in the 1988 season. However, continual problems with the 639 and later 640’s revolutionary semi-automatic gearbox saw the team forced to use the turbocharged F1/87/88C in 1988, with the 639 and 640 debut pushed back to 1989, the first year of FISA’s 3.5 Litre atmospheric only formula.
The 640 series was clearly a well-prepared car: full season of testing before debut etc.

How come by mid-1991, if not 1992, this series of Ferrari cars was no longer competitive for championship victory?! :?:

Was this due to the departure of Barnard to Benetton and thus a change in technical direction for the 640 series of cars, culminating in the (significantly different) F92A?

I.e., Ferrari eschewing Newey's (and presumably Barnard's) approach for a continual improvement on a series of cars, an approach which Ferrari returned to for the F310 through F2005 series of cars -- a series which Barnard takes credit for, having overseen the initial V10-powered F310. Is Barnard taking credit for this series of cars a sign of hubris or thoroughly sound? :?:

Note: the Wikipedia article blames the engine for F92A troubles, but surely Ferrari producing a subpar engine is unthinkable?!

EvilPhil II
EvilPhil II
6
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:21 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:54 pm
EvilPhil II wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:49 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:04 pm
I, and this is a personal opinion, do not know if Ferrari ever intended to race the 639 'mule'. If they had intensions to race said model ''1988/639 mule'' they would not build just 2 as late in 1988.
Watch the interviews with the designer. All is revealed.
.... A modified version of the F1/87/88C was initially used as a test mule for the new V-12 engine and the semi-automatic gearbox until the FERRARI 639 test car first arrived for testing in late 1988.
Here is a copy of Autosprint 28 1988.
It is from July 1988 and clearly shows the Ferrari 639 being driven by Alboreto in a strange seating position.

https://www.ebay.it/itm/193683065647

Another interesting development was that F1 had intended for Turbos to be banned in 1988. But somehow it was overruled and instead, they attempted to reduce the Boost and fuel limits of the turbos in the hope of making them uncompetitive. This led to Ferrari continuing with the 1987 turbo car rather than racing the 639.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
50
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Language issue: what are hip-radiators (Lotus 72)?

Post

Yes that cover shows Alboreto testing the 639 in 1988.