2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
organic
994
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:24 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Luscion wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:47 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 1:24 pm
It would be interesting to correct that for McLaren who brought the upgrade in austria. Definitely a bit skewed given they were firm last before that upgrade. Austria onwards would be a decent bet.

Maybe doing it driver relative would be better? Who knows how they are calculating these times? As in you have RB with max 1 and checo p5 you average out p2.5. So if one driver considerably better and one underperforms is it messing with the team average?

Merc need a LOT of time to catch up to red bull/max. I’d dare say .750 to bring a decent challenge.

They probably better off doing a 2021 style - max the engine out and take the 5 spot penalty.

I think Vanja sums it up, as others have previously. This is the single most biggest time Toto needs to bring the team forwards. There is not one single excuse they can use for the change from W14 into W15. Especially when they have hinted at all these certain fundamental changes that need to be addressed
I think there's a couple things going for Merc this season. Them realizing how important suspension is and giving the W15 bespoke suspension,
Are you insinuating that the W14 suspension is 'off the shelf'? It already is 'bespoke'.

I thought the team were aware of suspension woes in '22: the ride was terrible according to both drivers' constant complaints even after porpoising was 'solved' for them & numerous times the team said that they needed mechanical fixes not just aero hence development of the W13 could not solve some of their main issues... and that they would happen in the off-season with suspension...

I think more than anything they discovered with the W14 that their aero was the issue. AMR's success with Merc's rear-suspension among other things demonstrated that from the get-go.

They obviously knew their aero development was poor over the winter too. They had model issues and individuals involved were fired before the season started. They had begun abandoning the zeropod concept already by pre-season testing.
Last edited by organic on Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
339
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Hammerfist wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:18 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:05 pm
If I didn't know any better, I'd say Mercedes had a real "party mode" on the ICE side which they were able to use because of the weather.

https://i.postimg.cc/q72vJZLC/image.png


The Merc PU has probably been the most up and down this year. More power than anyone in the cold of Las Vegas, but completely nerfed and neutralized in the hot conditions of Hungary.
They also ran max downforce in Hungary. And they did get pole in Hungary and imo were the second best car in the race. So no, I don't think you can call that being neutralized.
Everyone had Max downforce in Hungary. Hamilton and Russell were overheating in Hungary and this was rerported in the post-race news cycle.

Henri
Henri
-6
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:58 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

214270 wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:35 pm
j_ste wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:14 am
Henri wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:21 am
w15 needs to find 1+ sec to compete with the rb20.. impressive from Lewis p3 with the 3rd fastest car.. george and Lewis need a competitive car like w12 to fight for a title
For most of that, I'd imagine McLaren are 2nd but their first 7 races were very slow to bump them down to 5th
In the first half, Merc no more than 3rd best, in the 2nd half no more than 3rd best again (prob around 4th in fairness).

Coming in 3rd, drivers/constructors is a pretty satisfactory achievement all things considered; let’s hope AD is positive.
Very satisfactory indeed

Luscion
Luscion
65
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:37 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

organic wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:04 pm
Luscion wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:47 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 1:24 pm
It would be interesting to correct that for McLaren who brought the upgrade in austria. Definitely a bit skewed given they were firm last before that upgrade. Austria onwards would be a decent bet.

Maybe doing it driver relative would be better? Who knows how they are calculating these times? As in you have RB with max 1 and checo p5 you average out p2.5. So if one driver considerably better and one underperforms is it messing with the team average?

Merc need a LOT of time to catch up to red bull/max. I’d dare say .750 to bring a decent challenge.

They probably better off doing a 2021 style - max the engine out and take the 5 spot penalty.

I think Vanja sums it up, as others have previously. This is the single most biggest time Toto needs to bring the team forwards. There is not one single excuse they can use for the change from W14 into W15. Especially when they have hinted at all these certain fundamental changes that need to be addressed
I think there's a couple things going for Merc this season. Them realizing how important suspension is and giving the W15 bespoke suspension,
Are you insinuating that the W14 suspension is 'off the shelf'? It already is 'bespoke'.

I thought the team were aware of suspension woes in '22: the ride was terrible according to both drivers' constant complaints even after porpoising was 'solved' for them & numerous times the team said that they needed mechanical fixes not just aero hence development of the W13 could not solve some of their main issues... and that they would happen in the off-season with suspension...

I think more than anything they discovered with the W14 that their aero was the issue. AMR's success with Merc's rear-suspension among other things demonstrated that from the get-go.

They obviously knew their aero development was poor over the winter too. They had model issues and individuals involved were fired before the season started. They had begun abandoning the zeropod concept already by pre-season testing.
No I think the bespoke thing simply means a different suspension possibly both front and rear compared to the W14, shovlin talked about how they found 'a rich seem of development' in suspension a couple months ago, how they always(assume he means from the w13 onward) had a problem with either weak rear on entry or poor front at the apex and that their looking at how to bring the aero and vehicle dynamics together

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... 0the%20W14.

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
0
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:18 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:08 pm
Hammerfist wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:18 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:05 pm
If I didn't know any better, I'd say Mercedes had a real "party mode" on the ICE side which they were able to use because of the weather.

https://i.postimg.cc/q72vJZLC/image.png


The Merc PU has probably been the most up and down this year. More power than anyone in the cold of Las Vegas, but completely nerfed and neutralized in the hot conditions of Hungary.
They also ran max downforce in Hungary. And they did get pole in Hungary and imo were the second best car in the race. So no, I don't think you can call that being neutralized.
Everyone had Max downforce in Hungary. Hamilton and Russell were overheating in Hungary and this was rerported in the post-race news cycle.
The race performance doesnt agree with what you said. Ham had a tough first stint and a bad strategy but he was rapid towards the end. I dont think they suffered in straight line speed in that race. They were in the same boat as everybody else. So im not sure what youre trying to say. If you want to say vegas was the first time they were genuinely quick in a straight line then i agree. But they werent nerfed in hungary. They were their average selves. Maybe you meant brazil…

User avatar
chrisc90
38
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post



Some bold comments in there, especially about being first on the road. Too many if's and but's to be able to agree with him there. I mean if you overtake everyone, you win the race.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
339
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Christian Horner claims that Lewis Hamilton contacted RB to see if there was any interest: https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... verstappen

Also says he contacted Ferrari too.

It sounds like Hamilton really was considering leaving for a more competitive team.

User avatar
chrisc90
38
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Maybe he wants to keep his face and brand/etc on the podium to protect his image?

Luscion
Luscion
65
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:37 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 12:32 am
Christian Horner claims that Lewis Hamilton contacted RB to see if there was any interest: https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... verstappen

Also says he contacted Ferrari too.

It sounds like Hamilton really was considering leaving for a more competitive team.
Isn't this what all drivers do though to gauge interest and help with negotiating for their contract, Lewis was pretty open about meeting Ferrari's CEO in Monaco before signing, he even told Toto it happened but that he wasnt going anywhere according to Toto himself. I don't think there's any truth to Fred and Lewis meeting on those circumstances as they both denied it, they've just stayed friends for a long time and talk to each other almost ever race weekend according to Fred

https://scuderiafans.com/toto-wolff-rev ... estaurant/

Henri
Henri
-6
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:58 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 12:32 am
Christian Horner claims that Lewis Hamilton contacted RB to see if there was any interest: https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... verstappen

Also says he contacted Ferrari too.

It sounds like Hamilton really was considering leaving for a more competitive team.
It was about leverage in negotiations with Mercedes l.. so max or horner vetoed Lewis ?

Henri
Henri
-6
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:58 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 12:42 am
Maybe he wants to keep his face and brand/etc on the podium to protect his image?
We know horner wants to protect max from a strong teamate. Lol

Henri
Henri
-6
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:58 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post


Looks like max or horner vetoed like prost lol

CHT
CHT
-6
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:24 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 12:32 am
Christian Horner claims that Lewis Hamilton contacted RB to see if there was any interest: https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... verstappen

Also says he contacted Ferrari too.

It sounds like Hamilton really was considering leaving for a more competitive team.
Certainly not good for morale of
team to see LH wanting to switch and abandon the team to pursue his 8WDC just one year of not winning. Perhaps such self interest culture; Toto included, is what pushes some of the key engineers to quit.

Especially if we consider how Brawn and his team started the Brackley team which become Merc F1.

Luscion
Luscion
65
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:37 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Henri wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:56 am

Looks like max or horner vetoed like prost lol
shame we'll most likely never get them on the same team, Max and Lewis has the possibility to be the most dominate pairing with them sailing off into the distance together or them crashing into eachother every other race and costing the team points lol.

mendis
mendis
19
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:12 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Henri wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:56 am

Looks like max or horner vetoed like prost lol
Not the first time Horner has rejected taking Lewis to Red Bull. It already happened in 2012/13 as well.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181 ... %20starlet.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... ebber.html