2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:12 pm
trinidefender wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:15 pm
Not sure if this was already posted but it’s quite insightful.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... /10550193/

Posting the key quote below explaining why the car doesn’t work as well at low downforce settings. It’s from the front of the car, not the back.
Stella explained that cars' aerodynamics become quite sensitive at low downforce levels because of the impact the lower front wing levels have on the wake around the front wheels – which is critical to car performance.

"When you go for a low rear wing, you go with a low front wing [for balance reasons], and very often this influences both ends because, when you reduce the load on the front wing, you reduce control of the front wheel wake," he said. "That affects then the behaviour of the car.
This is exactly what I have been saying for a little while now.

The issues have nothing to do with rear traction and everything to do with how the front of the car behaves at lower speed.
That it isn't to do with low speed corners but low downforce situations full stop.
I'm going to say that I even talked about the issue being partly around the wake of the car at lower speeds, as I think LionsHeart will recall, and that the problem is both Aerodynamic and mechanical, going on to say that the Singapore update was a big step in the Aero fix to this problem but the platform itself needs work to create a more balanced window for the Aero to work in.
Hey, man! Yeah, I remember. We had a lot of conversations about it. I'm sure the team knows how to solve this problem, because this also affects tire wear. Anyway, I think there are interrelated things here.

LionsHeart
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:55 pm
Customer Mercedes for 5 years, McLaren-Mercedes 2026 through 2030?!
https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/11/24/me ... gine-deal/

Granted Brown has already searched around RBPT Ford, Honda, Renault etc and not found a better deal elsewhere...

But it still seems to be a premature deal from Brown given a works Cadillac engine supply may be available from 2028 (assuming Andretti Global are unsuccessful in joining Formula 1).
Honestly, I'm not sure about something like that. It took Honda many years to get to a competitive level. Mercedes was unbeatable. Let's just say I have no idea exactly what the powertrain will be like in 2026, how it will deliver power, how the turbo will work without a heat engine, but Cadillac will be just as among the catching up. What's important here is how early the engine builders start working on the dyno and what performance they can achieve before the engine delivers that performance in a stable form and doesn't break down early. One example is Renault's powertrains, even though they seem to have a lot of experience.

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:55 pm
mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:12 pm
trinidefender wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:15 pm
Not sure if this was already posted but it’s quite insightful.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... /10550193/

Posting the key quote below explaining why the car doesn’t work as well at low downforce settings. It’s from the front of the car, not the back.
This is exactly what I have been saying for a little while now.

The issues have nothing to do with rear traction and everything to do with how the front of the car behaves at lower speed.
That it isn't to do with low speed corners but low downforce situations full stop.
I'm going to say that I even talked about the issue being partly around the wake of the car at lower speeds, as I think LionsHeart will recall, and that the problem is both Aerodynamic and mechanical, going on to say that the Singapore update was a big step in the Aero fix to this problem but the platform itself needs work to create a more balanced window for the Aero to work in.
Hey, man! Yeah, I remember. We had a lot of conversations about it. I'm sure the team knows how to solve this problem, because this also affects tire wear. Anyway, I think there are interrelated things here.
I'm sure they will, I'm just shocked that we were close to being correct :lol: :lol:
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

CjC
CjC
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:55 pm
Customer Mercedes for 5 years, McLaren-Mercedes 2026 through 2030?!
https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/11/24/me ... gine-deal/

Granted Brown has already searched around RBPT Ford, Honda, Renault etc and not found a better deal elsewhere...

But it still seems to be a premature deal from Brown given a works Cadillac engine supply may be available from 2028 (assuming Andretti Global are unsuccessful in joining Formula 1).
Wasn’t Toto almost laughing off Horners concerns about the new for 2026 PU regs?
Would suggest Merc are confident they’ll have another competitive PU?
Just a fan's point of view

Ground Effect
Ground Effect
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:55 pm
Customer Mercedes for 5 years, McLaren-Mercedes 2026 through 2030?!
https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/11/24/me ... gine-deal/

Granted Brown has already searched around RBPT Ford, Honda, Renault etc and not found a better deal elsewhere...

But it still seems to be a premature deal from Brown given a works Cadillac engine supply may be available from 2028 (assuming Andretti Global are unsuccessful in joining Formula 1).
Didn't Cadillac say it was Andretti or bust? Williams already made a play, couldn't have been positive, because reports say they'll soon extend their Mercedes supply as well.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

FittingMechanics
FittingMechanics
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Apparently Ferrari, Mercedes and Honda are all very similar on power. Why risk it going with an unknown partner when you can use a reliable one and beat them in aero (hopefully).

I may be burnt by Honda GP2 engine saga.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:55 pm
Customer Mercedes for 5 years, McLaren-Mercedes 2026 through 2030?!
https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/11/24/me ... gine-deal/

Granted Brown has already searched around RBPT Ford, Honda, Renault etc and not found a better deal elsewhere...

But it still seems to be a premature deal from Brown given a works Cadillac engine supply may be available from 2028 (assuming Andretti Global are unsuccessful in joining Formula 1).
Brown talked with everyone because that is the right thing to do and to put pressure on Mercedes too for a better deal… Extending the contract with Mercedes doesn’t mean that he didn’t find a better deal elsewhere… Reality is that there is no reason to change the PU supplier, specially with how strong it has shown to be for a very long period of time.

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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FittingMechanics wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:35 pm
Apparently Ferrari, Mercedes and Honda are all very similar on power. Why risk it going with an unknown partner when you can use a reliable one and beat them in aero (hopefully).

I may be burnt by Honda GP2 engine saga.
I think the Honda is slightly down on peak HP if I recall correctly, with a statement from Red Bull recently saying as much.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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BMMR61
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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FittingMechanics wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:35 pm
Apparently Ferrari, Mercedes and Honda are all very similar on power. Why risk it going with an unknown partner when you can use a reliable one and beat them in aero (hopefully).

I may be burnt by Honda GP2 engine saga.
Indeed, the risk/reward factor comes in with a power unit and it's parent company two years out. Mercedes have been strongly committed to and competitive in F1 since the mid 1990s. The era we are now in shows that the old saying that you have to have a "works engine" to be champions (Ron Dennis) is no longer a maxim. Granted that PU developments, year on year, will tend to be directed at the "works team" in terms of layout and installation, there's a lot more now in aero and chassis than outright power and it's delivery.

The ugly relations that came from RD's defiant attitude that grew through the "noughties", and the smell of the photocopied Ferrari documents scandal, is long in the rearview mirror as far as Daimler-Benz. IMO. Granted the Mercedes corporate decision-makers would prefer a Mercedes-Mercedes victory than a McLaren-Mercedes victory, but I expect MB to play it straight - as the FIA rules require - to do the best by it's customers and avoid outright anti-competitive behaviour. Brown has been building a good relationship with his suppliers and showing confidence in them for the longer term will be a strengthening factor in that relationship "going forward". And, what options elsewhere looked as good and without major risk?

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BMMR61
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:17 pm
Emag wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:05 pm
Tomsky wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:02 pm
https://i.imgur.com/bhhB524.jpeg
Good traction, and in the telemetry you can see, Lando was clipping at the end of the straights.

Hopefully they got a bit more power in reserve for tomorrow
Yes, it is promising to see the car return to it's good traits and to out drag the field from the corner exits.

You never know in FP2, but you have the feeling looking at the telemetry that the car is behaving well enough in general and that we will push on tomorrow.

Looking at the rpm we seem comparible to.the relative difference to Ferrari when compared to Vegas Q, but RB appear to have more in the tank.
I had wanted to take another, better look at the Vegas performance which I managed yesterday. I think the weekend was an aberration in a half season of pretty consistently strong performances. And it was really only exacerbated by two things - the surface/temperature volatility, and the poor team decision not to pit both drivers in Q1 for new softs.
This decision making would be the main issue to learn from and arguably an ongoing question mark over the team. Yes, the MCL60 didn't fall anywhere near the window out of the garage in FP1 and FP2 but my point here is - the car had in it the performance to be at least a top 3 or 4 car and easily a P5 result.

Yes, the front outwash in low speed corners showed itself in telemetry - and there were a lot of low speed corners at Vegas - but Oscar was able to produce a P10 & fastest lap result which was still a poor reflection of how good he and the car was, on one of the least suitable tracks since the Austrian GP updates. Now we're at one of the tracks pinpointed as a more likely McLaren track and why should we be surprised it's looking good from Friday practice? If people can keep hold of reality and not get too concerned about the contrary temperature conditions of FP1 and 3, McLaren should be strong in qualifying and probably better than Ferrari in race pace.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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BMMR61 wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2023 12:40 am
And, what options elsewhere looked as good and without major risk?
Renault are intending to have a world class power unit from 2026 from what I hear. It is interesting that Renault weren't able to make a proposal to bring McLaren back into the fold!

Alpine is understood to have decided that since it had become clear the team did not have the full support from its rivals, despite what had previously been arranged under the good faith understanding, it was better to direct any resources it would have been spent on improving the output of its current engine instead on work to the new engine rules.

Bruno Famin: “We quickly reached the conclusion that it was not worth our time and effort. Moreover, for such a small performance gain, it would be a distraction in our efforts towards the development of the 2026 PU project.”
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alpi ... /10550229/

Full steam ahead on the 2026 Renault being the class of the field! :)

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:39 am
BMMR61 wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2023 12:40 am
And, what options elsewhere looked as good and without major risk?
Renault are intending to have a world class power unit from 2026 from what I hear. It is interesting that Renault weren't able to make a proposal to bring McLaren back into the fold!

Alpine is understood to have decided that since it had become clear the team did not have the full support from its rivals, despite what had previously been arranged under the good faith understanding, it was better to direct any resources it would have been spent on improving the output of its current engine instead on work to the new engine rules.

Bruno Famin: “We quickly reached the conclusion that it was not worth our time and effort. Moreover, for such a small performance gain, it would be a distraction in our efforts towards the development of the 2026 PU project.”
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alpi ... /10550229/

Full steam ahead on the 2026 Renault being the class of the field! :)
Well, Renault has been “intending” to have a power unit that leads the field for more than a decade to no avail… Beyond hopes and dreams there isn’t a single factor that could point towards them achieving their goals

Mostlyeels
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2023 1:39 am
BMMR61 wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2023 12:40 am
And, what options elsewhere looked as good and without major risk?
Renault are intending to have a world class power unit from 2026 from what I hear. It is interesting that Renault weren't able to make a proposal to bring McLaren back into the fold!

Alpine is understood to have decided that since it had become clear the team did not have the full support from its rivals, despite what had previously been arranged under the good faith understanding, it was better to direct any resources it would have been spent on improving the output of its current engine instead on work to the new engine rules.

Bruno Famin: “We quickly reached the conclusion that it was not worth our time and effort. Moreover, for such a small performance gain, it would be a distraction in our efforts towards the development of the 2026 PU project.”
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alpi ... /10550229/

Full steam ahead on the 2026 Renault being the class of the field! :)
That'd certainly be something for the books! TBH Renault just haven't been a good PU manufacturer to partner with since the V6T era began.

Audi are entering as a PU and constructor, aren't they? I'll be very interested to see what they bring from LMP. Cadillac are competing in LMP2? These types of PUs will be closer to the 2026 spec than the current ones, in terms of more limited hybrid harvesting?

I hadn't heard of RBPT being down on HP, but they seem to have (or used to have) better deployment than most.

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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BMMR61 wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2023 12:56 am
mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:17 pm
Emag wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 4:05 pm


Good traction, and in the telemetry you can see, Lando was clipping at the end of the straights.

Hopefully they got a bit more power in reserve for tomorrow
Yes, it is promising to see the car return to it's good traits and to out drag the field from the corner exits.

You never know in FP2, but you have the feeling looking at the telemetry that the car is behaving well enough in general and that we will push on tomorrow.

Looking at the rpm we seem comparible to.the relative difference to Ferrari when compared to Vegas Q, but RB appear to have more in the tank.
I had wanted to take another, better look at the Vegas performance which I managed yesterday. I think the weekend was an aberration in a half season of pretty consistently strong performances. And it was really only exacerbated by two things - the surface/temperature volatility, and the poor team decision not to pit both drivers in Q1 for new softs.
This decision making would be the main issue to learn from and arguably an ongoing question mark over the team. Yes, the MCL60 didn't fall anywhere near the window out of the garage in FP1 and FP2 but my point here is - the car had in it the performance to be at least a top 3 or 4 car and easily a P5 result.

Yes, the front outwash in low speed corners showed itself in telemetry - and there were a lot of low speed corners at Vegas - but Oscar was able to produce a P10 & fastest lap result which was still a poor reflection of how good he and the car was, on one of the least suitable tracks since the Austrian GP updates. Now we're at one of the tracks pinpointed as a more likely McLaren track and why should we be surprised it's looking good from Friday practice? If people can keep hold of reality and not get too concerned about the contrary temperature conditions of FP1 and 3, McLaren should be strong in qualifying and probably better than Ferrari in race pace.
Stella explained it in the post Trinidefender shared, the car does not work well with a low load at the front as we struggle to deal more with the tyre wake. This is any low DF situation including lower speed corners and low DF setup (Worse in Low DF corners WITH a low DF package!). It is not an aberration per se but just something the car is not very good at. It appears you can dial out some of it but that has an affect on the car, I suspect that with the low DF setup this became harder.

Having looked at the race data it was unlikely we were ever going to finish more than P5 at Vegas because over the race we weren't really better than Hamilton, Leclerc, Verstappen or Ocon. Everyone else was in our sights, but with what is normally the second best car, this was a step back from the P2 we could usually hope for. That said, you'd think in part it was hindered by FP1 as with that session, we might have been able to dial around the issues earlier, refine the setup and learn the tyres better, but the race pace we had was around P5 with 4 different manufacturers in front of us.

I have no doubt the team will have this fixed. You get the feeling they understand this and that creating a more refined mechanical platform will unlock a lot of pace in the Aero package.

Do we know if they brought last weeks Beam Wing style here, to continue to test to see if they can unlock RBs DRS trick?
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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_cerber1
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Re: 2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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