2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
AR3-GP
AR3-GP
333
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

marcel171281 wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:48 am
Venturiation wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:56 pm
it's finally over for this car and concept
Funny how so many people still classify this car as a massive s**tbox with a flawed concept. They have beaten 8 out of 9 other concepts/cars on the grid this year.

2nd in the constuctors, first non RB driver in the WDCC. Seems like a pretty decent car after all.
The problem is how they achieved that 2nd place, which really they are probably more unhappy with 2nd this year than they were with 3rd last year. They have fewer podiums, fewer poles, and fewer wins than last year. Their upgrades often did not lead to conclusive on track improvements vs what was simply a track that suited them. Where Ferrari actually managed to get on top of issues they started the season with, Hamilton was just as distrustful of the Merc at the end, as he was in the beginning.

I'd say the only thing notable this year was the PU improvement but, even this, they could hardly utilize because the car has a very inefficient cooling system.

User avatar
Juzh
161
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 4:00 pm
Hammerfist wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:49 pm
Their only hope imo is if rbr somehow messes up the rb20. There are rumors rbr will go for a drastically new concept. So there’s a chance they miss out on that. So it could be 2015 again.
Merc won 16 of 19 races in 2015. Are you thinking of a different year? RB will be hoping that winning 16/19 is their "fall" but...
He's thinking of 2015 RB11 which was by RB standards a sub-par car, but forgetting RB dont have a PU that's anywhere from 60-80 hp down on competition anymore, so a year like 2015 is extremely unlikely to occur in the near future.

f1jcw
f1jcw
17
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:15 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:48 am
f1jcw wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:38 am
Why do you continue to repeat this falsehood.

1. It’s not even true.
Repeating merc PR bs is not gonna make it true.

https://www.racefans.net/2023/11/18/sai ... row-start/

The stewards turned down Ferrari’s request, saying they do not have the power to derogate the regulations. However Sainz believes they could have done so had rival teams not applied pressure to ensure a penalty would be given.
***
"For sure there will be rival teams pushing for me to get a penalty which surprises me in a way. In another [way], I’ve been in the sport for too long to understand that this business… there’s too much money involved in the finishing position in the constructors’ or whatever for a team not to threaten to apply for a penalty for me."
The FIA Code gives stewards the authority, under 11.9.3.g to ‘decide to suspend any penalty in accordance with Article 12.2.3’ This was a clear cut case in point. Neither McLaren nor RB objected to Sainz getting a free swap since that was force majeure.

f1jcw wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:38 am
2. I can’t remember Ferrari helping them at anytime in AD21
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/67/60 ... b3d92d.gif
None of that says anything about Merc, let it go.

CHT
CHT
-6
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:24 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Was just watching the post-race interview last night. Comparing this year's Abu Dhabi post-race interview to 2022, the Merc drivers (especially LH) seem less optimistic as compared to last year when they won a race in Brazil. LH is also showing some signs of burnout after a very difficult and long season struggling with W14.

Since James Allison returned as Technical Director 7 months ago, the Merc has shown some signs of improvement but still struggling with the car setup and unpredictability. With Hamilton talking about Max's 17-second gap to 2nd, even when Max was barely pushing at the front that will put tremendous pressure on James Allsons his team over the winter to deliver a Brawn GP-like miracle with the W15

What is good for LH is shifting his focus on remaining in F1 for the Africa race which also means he may be hanging around for some more years to come as I don't think a race in Africa can be set up within a year or 2.

If 2024 doesn't turn out well, I think it will be closure for LH on the 8th WDC to start looking to become an ambassador for F1 instead.

Luscion
Luscion
43
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:37 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

CHT wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 4:49 am
Was just watching the post-race interview last night. Comparing this year's Abu Dhabi post-race interview to 2022, the Merc drivers (especially LH) seem less optimistic as compared to last year when they won a race in Brazil. LH is also showing some signs of burnout after a very difficult and long season struggling with W14.

Since James Allison returned as Technical Director 7 months ago, the Merc has shown some signs of improvement but still struggling with the car setup and unpredictability. With Hamilton talking about Max's 17-second gap to 2nd, even when Max was barely pushing at the front that will put tremendous pressure on James Allsons his team over the winter to deliver a Brawn GP-like miracle with the W15

What is good for LH is shifting his focus on remaining in F1 for the Africa race which also means he may be hanging around for some more years to come as I don't think a race in Africa can be set up within a year or 2.

If 2024 doesn't turn out well, I think it will be closure for LH on the 8th WDC to start looking to become an ambassador for F1 instead.
Allison has said he hasnt touched anything to do with the W14 since he came back and is only working on the W15, i thought he did since the new floor at COTA was said to be a trail run for the new concept so dont know how that works but yea



and i think Lewis looking burnt out is a combination of him waiting to never have to drive the W14 again and the brutal schedule they had with the last two races, having to adjust to LV time, having to stay up until 4am and then going halfway across the world to a completely different timezone after just getting used to LV's timezone. the season was over, it was clear the car couldnt win a race, he had p3 in the driver's championship locked in and only had to worry about P2 for the team
Last edited by Luscion on Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
denyall
0
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:46 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Lewis is a master at applying himself when it matters. He did enough to get P2 for the team. He's not the guy who must win every race he's in.

The W15 will either be competitive or it won't. We'll find out in March.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
333
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Luscion wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:04 am
and i think Lewis looking burnt out is a combination of him waiting to never have to drive the W14 again and the brutal schedule they had with the last two races, having to adjust to LV time, having to stay up until 4am and then going halfway across the world to a completely different timezone after just getting used to LV's timezone. the season was over, it was clear the car couldnt win a race, he had p3 in the driver's championship locked in and only had to worry about P2 for the team
Hamilton said he doesn't struggle with jet lag in Las Vegas. On your second point, Hamilton wanted better than what he did and he'll be the first person to tell you that.
Last edited by AR3-GP on Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
333
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

denyall wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:10 am
Lewis is a master at applying himself when it matters. He did enough to get P2 for the team. He's not the guy who must win every race he's in.
He has been giving it everything to win a race in each of the last 2 seasons and his plan this past weekend was definitely not to just mail it in. What is the purpose downplaying it?

User avatar
ValeVida46
0
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:36 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:48 am
f1jcw wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:38 am
Why do you continue to repeat this falsehood.

1. It’s not even true.
Repeating merc PR bs is not gonna make it true.

https://www.racefans.net/2023/11/18/sai ... row-start/

The stewards turned down Ferrari’s request, saying they do not have the power to derogate the regulations. However Sainz believes they could have done so had rival teams not applied pressure to ensure a penalty would be given.
***
"For sure there will be rival teams pushing for me to get a penalty which surprises me in a way. In another [way], I’ve been in the sport for too long to understand that this business… there’s too much money involved in the finishing position in the constructors’ or whatever for a team not to threaten to apply for a penalty for me."
The FIA Code gives stewards the authority, under 11.9.3.g to ‘decide to suspend any penalty in accordance with Article 12.2.3’ This was a clear cut case in point. Neither McLaren nor RB objected to Sainz getting a free swap since that was force majeure.

f1jcw wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:38 am
2. I can’t remember Ferrari helping them at anytime in AD21
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/67/60 ... b3d92d.gif
For a guy with over 1100 "points"... There's a spectacular bad failure at making assumptions and presenting them as facts.
What you have presented is not indicative of Mercedes or anyone else.
Sainz was speculating himself..."For Sure there WILL be..."

You've added 2 + 2 + 2 and got 10.

User avatar
ValeVida46
0
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:36 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:00 am
denyall wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:10 am
Lewis is a master at applying himself when it matters. He did enough to get P2 for the team. He's not the guy who must win every race he's in.
He has been giving it everything to win a race in each of the last 2 seasons and his plan this past weekend was definitely not to just mail it in. What is the purpose downplaying it?
What is the purpose of consistently coming here and being negative about the team or drivers?
Nothing constructive. Just needle all the time. Why?

User avatar
chrisc90
37
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post


User avatar
chrisc90
37
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post





Can they test next years parts as part of this test?

User avatar
Vanja #66
1350
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:38 pm

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

f1jcw wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:03 pm
None of that says anything about Merc, let it go.
ValeVida46 wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 8:02 am
For a guy with over 1100 "points"... There's a spectacular bad failure at making assumptions and presenting them as facts.
What you have presented is not indicative of Mercedes or anyone else.
Sainz was speculating himself..."For Sure there WILL be..."

You've added 2 + 2 + 2 and got 10.
Are we seriously gonna pretend Toto didn't immediately aggressively downplay the incident? Is he on the Las Vegas promoter's (FOM, by the way) payroll? Or is there another agenda for him and his team? :lol: That's the 4 you missed, VV46 :wink:

Let's also examine all the layers of bs in their "explanation" to Kravitz.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula- ... s-31469228

But Croft's colleague Ted Kravitz said he had been flatly told by Mercedes that this is not true. "I've reached out to Mercedes [to ask] is it the case that you would have or could have objected to a Sainz derogation for that penalty?" he told viewers.

"They said, 'No, absolutely not, purely speculative. The precedent is that even when it's not the driver or team's fault, you carry the penalty and the rules don't allow for discretion to be applied', as the steward explained. Mercedes' point was that they would not have been in a position to object to any derogation.

"Their only position would have been if the rules had been incorrectly applied and some derogation or allowance would have been made for Sainz. Then, I think Mercedes would have objected to that and probably some other teams as well, because you can't have the rules being incorrectly applied, can you?"
1 and 2) There is no precedent of PU penalties in case of such incidents. 2019 Baku Russell damaged the floor and not the PU. 2017 Malaysia Grosjean got chassis, suspension and bodywork damage, not even gearbox, the team was allowed to break curfew to fix the car without any penalty - so the only precedent would actually be to suspend any sporting penalties. 2016 Monaco, Rosberg got puncture and Button got heavy damage but no PU damage.

3) They admit to oppose suspending the penalty and falsely state that rules don't allow that. As I already mentioned, rules do allow that at stewards discretion.

The FIA Code gives stewards the authority, under 11.9.3.g to ‘decide to suspend any penalty in accordance with Article 12.2.3’
So outright and blatant false narrative on 3 aspects. :lol:
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

CHT
CHT
-6
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:24 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Luscion wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:04 am
CHT wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 4:49 am
Was just watching the post-race interview last night. Comparing this year's Abu Dhabi post-race interview to 2022, the Merc drivers (especially LH) seem less optimistic as compared to last year when they won a race in Brazil. LH is also showing some signs of burnout after a very difficult and long season struggling with W14.

Since James Allison returned as Technical Director 7 months ago, the Merc has shown some signs of improvement but still struggling with the car setup and unpredictability. With Hamilton talking about Max's 17-second gap to 2nd, even when Max was barely pushing at the front that will put tremendous pressure on James Allsons his team over the winter to deliver a Brawn GP-like miracle with the W15

What is good for LH is shifting his focus on remaining in F1 for the Africa race which also means he may be hanging around for some more years to come as I don't think a race in Africa can be set up within a year or 2.

If 2024 doesn't turn out well, I think it will be closure for LH on the 8th WDC to start looking to become an ambassador for F1 instead.
Allison has said he hasnt touched anything to do with the W14 since he came back and is only working on the W15, i thought he did since the new floor at COTA was said to be a trail run for the new concept so dont know how that works but yea



and i think Lewis looking burnt out is a combination of him waiting to never have to drive the W14 again and the brutal schedule they had with the last two races, having to adjust to LV time, having to stay up until 4am and then going halfway across the world to a completely different timezone after just getting used to LV's timezone. the season was over, it was clear the car couldnt win a race, he had p3 in the driver's championship locked in and only had to worry about P2 for the team

Here is James Allison talking about the new floor in Oct 2023. Obviously, it didn't turn out as well as they hoped for

"It should be good at any circuit for the remainder of the year. It’s not transformative, [it] should be about a tenth of a second.

"It’s in the direction we think is decent, both for producing downforce in the right place, and hopefully being resistant to the bounciness that all these cars nibble at as soon as you try and get much downforce from them."
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... zloec.html

User avatar
pursue_one's
97
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:50 am

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

chrisc90 wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:20 pm




Can they test next years parts as part of this test?
No test parts or set-up changes will be permitted which give any sort of information to the competitor that is unrelated to the tyre test. All teams are only allowed to install parts used during race weekends.