2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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I agree re the swept front wing. Some people might like the look of it, but it's low hanging fruit for reducing the length of the cars. Much better to go with an un-swept wing.

Also, that overhead shot really reminds me of the 2007-8 Mclarens! Admittedly that's partly due to the livery...

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Stu
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 5:17 pm
"active aero (FW and RW)"
is this a rule ? - (the races start c.2 years from now)

what is the rule ?
(currently we have 2 permitted RW states dictated by fixed external command)
2 discrete states ?
5 discrete states/1 wing ? (eg Boeing/Airbus)
continuously variable states/2 wings ? - with automatic 'Monza to Monte Carlo' activation ?
ground effect managed by real-time wing DF control ? - anti-porpoising ?

F1 etc had both passive and simple active wing systems in 1967
do we now get instant 'unlimited' DF' regardless of drag or instant 'unlimited' drag regardless of DF ?
250 mph then 8g braking ?
Considering the reduction in regeneration (and therefore less average energy available drag reduction will be at a premium), I would imagine a maximum of three modes.
Regular (no activation) - something approximating to a Spa/Monza configuration.
DRS mode - as currently operated
DIS* mode - a second actuator on the main section to increase downforce for braking. Technically quite difficult to achieve with a DRS-style actuator (if it needs to default to ‘regular’ position), but possible if using a segmented main plane - you could lift the front of the wing to create greater camber.


*Drag Induction System ©️
Last edited by Stu on Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Spelling! autocorrect issues
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Stu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:22 am
... I would imagine a maximum of three modes.
Regular (no activation) - something approximating to a Spa/Monza configuration.
DRS mode - as currently operated
DIS* mode - a second actuator on the main section to increase downforce for braking. Technically quite difficult to achieve with a DRS-style actuator (if it needs to default to ‘regular’ position), but possible if using a segmented main plane - you could lift the front of the wing to create greater camber.
*Drag Induction System ©️
increased downforce regardless of drag is required at many times ie not only when braking

braking could also be served by increased rear DF (and drag) without increased front DF (and drag)
(because that will increase the time the MGU-K generates at 350kW)
or braking might even have reduced front DF including front wing reducing wheel drag

but Herr AMuS says wings will be 40% smaller
that would reduce the potential of the claimed 'Active Aero'

Clubman1d
Clubman1d
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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2026 would be a great time for F1 to reinvent itself.
Taking into account that the ICE engine is looking to be commercially on its way out. Why doesn't F1 leave these electrified/turbo engines behind and adopt "old" engine arquitectures?
They can keep having fun with synthetic fuels, and bring back the imposing sound.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Clubman1d wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:47 pm
2026 would be a great time for F1 to reinvent itself.
Taking into account that the ICE engine is looking to be commercially on its way out. Why doesn't F1 leave these electrified/turbo engines behind and adopt "old" engine arquitectures?
They can keep having fun with synthetic fuels, and bring back the imposing sound.
With your reasoning going to EVs makes more sense.

Clubman1d
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:50 am
Clubman1d wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:47 pm
2026 would be a great time for F1 to reinvent itself.
Taking into account that the ICE engine is looking to be commercially on its way out. Why doesn't F1 leave these electrified/turbo engines behind and adopt "old" engine arquitectures?
They can keep having fun with synthetic fuels, and bring back the imposing sound.
With your reasoning going to EVs makes more sense.
F1 lost its place as a sport that was leveled with the car market. There used to be a connection with the technology that was used in road cars and in F1, if not only for marketing purposes, but that was something that made a connection with fans and other people. Nowadays F1 is a bit lost.

Why not forget about having that connection and turn it into a pure motorsport?

I would go even further still and bring back manual gearboxes, but that would be too much of a shock?
Last edited by Clubman1d on Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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MIKEY_! wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:54 am
I agree re the swept front wing. Some people might like the look of it, but it's low hanging fruit for reducing the length of the cars. Much better to go with an un-swept wing.

Also, that overhead shot really reminds me of the 2007-8 Mclarens! Admittedly that's partly due to the livery...
And no wing is even better.
But without reducing wheelbase length reduction means little. And can't be much either, of course.

Henk_v
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:45 am

This could be a major save I suspect. They can remove around a meter and a half of "stuff. Not sure why the obsession with wheelbase in the regs and elsewhere. Just impose a hard limit of 4.3 meters for the car and they can move around the wheels within that the way they please.

Outside this there would be a major area to gain in the ICE itself as mentioned before, if they bothered with it and didn't just mandate the same weight and materials as it is now... Why? I hardly think the billions of dollars of engine development would be much effected by the use of materials superior to steel. (They explicitly ban metal matrix materials for a start)

But I think there's also a much greater potential for weight savings in the car body. They're using plain carbon fiber composites since the early eighties. If the minimum weight is much decreased they could start developing nanotube or graphene based composites. Maybe even finding much lighter materials to fill the fiber matrix. Now they have no incentive since they can reach the the minimum weight with carbon fiber reinforced plastic.
I am sorry to quote such an old post, but don't, for a minute, think F1 has the largest weight saving budget of all sports.

At times one could run an F1 team for over 2 years given the budget of one America's Cup campaign (sailboats). These guys have done it all.

Motorsports are arguably quite slow to adopt new materials.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Henk_v wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:17 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:45 am

This could be a major save I suspect. They can remove around a meter and a half of "stuff. Not sure why the obsession with wheelbase in the regs and elsewhere. Just impose a hard limit of 4.3 meters for the car and they can move around the wheels within that the way they please.

Outside this there would be a major area to gain in the ICE itself as mentioned before, if they bothered with it and didn't just mandate the same weight and materials as it is now... Why? I hardly think the billions of dollars of engine development would be much effected by the use of materials superior to steel. (They explicitly ban metal matrix materials for a start)

But I think there's also a much greater potential for weight savings in the car body. They're using plain carbon fiber composites since the early eighties. If the minimum weight is much decreased they could start developing nanotube or graphene based composites. Maybe even finding much lighter materials to fill the fiber matrix. Now they have no incentive since they can reach the the minimum weight with carbon fiber reinforced plastic.
I am sorry to quote such an old post, but don't, for a minute, think F1 has the largest weight saving budget of all sports.

At times one could run an F1 team for over 2 years given the budget of one America's Cup campaign (sailboats). These guys have done it all.

Motorsports are arguably quite slow to adopt new materials.
Not sure what's your point. It's a lot less about money and a lot more about regulations that prevent weight savings.

Henk_v
Henk_v
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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The discussion poses that if there was more weight reduction incentive F1 would invent lighter materials.

I'm just saying they wont

Bodywork must be relatively low cost as it has a low lifespan, between crashes and upgrades.

If bodywork would evolve into high values parts that would create a financial lock-in deferring upgrades. A crash would be a financial blow to a team impacting their financials elsewhere.

Imagine a team double-crashing in the second to last race and a new bodywork would push them over the CC because spares are just too costly.

Drivers would be instructed not to take risk and werd see just clean DRS overtakes.

Therefore, plain carbon, low cost bodywork serves racing.

Farnborough
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:03 pm
Henk_v wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:17 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:45 am

This could be a major save I suspect. They can remove around a meter and a half of "stuff. Not sure why the obsession with wheelbase in the regs and elsewhere. Just impose a hard limit of 4.3 meters for the car and they can move around the wheels within that the way they please.

Outside this there would be a major area to gain in the ICE itself as mentioned before, if they bothered with it and didn't just mandate the same weight and materials as it is now... Why? I hardly think the billions of dollars of engine development would be much effected by the use of materials superior to steel. (They explicitly ban metal matrix materials for a start)

But I think there's also a much greater potential for weight savings in the car body. They're using plain carbon fiber composites since the early eighties. If the minimum weight is much decreased they could start developing nanotube or graphene based composites. Maybe even finding much lighter materials to fill the fiber matrix. Now they have no incentive since they can reach the the minimum weight with carbon fiber reinforced plastic.
I am sorry to quote such an old post, but don't, for a minute, think F1 has the largest weight saving budget of all sports.

At times one could run an F1 team for over 2 years given the budget of one America's Cup campaign (sailboats). These guys have done it all.

Motorsports are arguably quite slow to adopt new materials.
Not sure what's your point. It's a lot less about money and a lot more about regulations that prevent weight savings.
F1 should think seriously about carrying two motor type, the storage for both fuel elements, the heavy wheels and attendant suspension brakes and safety equipment to mitigate increased mass during crash etc.

Really it needs to pull its head out of it's arse and realise it can never "lead" the world within environmental discussion.

As long as it reamains as a "showcase" for motor vehicle manufacturing company's prowess, then it will ultimately compromise itself. It just can't be all things to all observers.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Farnborough wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:40 am
mzso wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:03 pm
Henk_v wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:17 pm


I am sorry to quote such an old post, but don't, for a minute, think F1 has the largest weight saving budget of all sports.

At times one could run an F1 team for over 2 years given the budget of one America's Cup campaign (sailboats). These guys have done it all.

Motorsports are arguably quite slow to adopt new materials.
Not sure what's your point. It's a lot less about money and a lot more about regulations that prevent weight savings.
F1 should think seriously about carrying two motor type, the storage for both fuel elements, the heavy wheels and attendant suspension brakes and safety equipment to mitigate increased mass during crash etc.

Really it needs to pull its head out of it's arse and realise it can never "lead" the world within environmental discussion.

As long as it reamains as a "showcase" for motor vehicle manufacturing company's prowess, then it will ultimately compromise itself. It just can't be all things to all observers.
For all the hybrid stuff, it is still the ICE that makes the difference, and probably moreso from 2026.

The ERS inputs and outputs are tightly controlled, so there is little difference to be made there, except, maybe, in energy management.

The opportunity exists, however, to make more power with the ICE by improving its efficiency.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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wuzak wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:10 am
.... The ERS inputs and outputs are tightly controlled, so there is little difference to be made there, except, maybe, in energy management.

The opportunity exists, however, to make more power with the ICE by improving its efficiency.
well .....
(at present anyway) the ERS inputs and outputs aren't tightly controlled

the MGU-K actions aren't limited to 120 kW in motoring or generating power
eg the DC power used to motor is limited to 126.3 kW
(with efficiency over 95% the motoring is correspondingly over 120 kW - under 95% the motoring is below 120 kW)
similarly generating power can be over 120kW (or under 120 kW)

at 2026 ICE and MGU-K powers the benefits of MG and CU efficiency would be relatively about 5 times greater
generation (and corresponding motoring) will be critical
(Honda has in recent years shown increased recovery generation - extending to lower powers)

CHT
CHT
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Can Formula 1 possibly become fully electric? Based on current EV technology I reckon it will be difficult due to its weight. In Formula E, though the cars are smaller, they are heavier than F1, while the race distances are shorter only 80 to 90km vs 305km for F1.

As I read, the new 2026 engine is going to be challenging because the PU will be limited by energy flow instead of fuel flow.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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CHT wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:52 pm
Can Formula 1 possibly become fully electric? Based on current EV technology I reckon it will be difficult due to its weight. In Formula E, though the cars are smaller, they are heavier than F1, while the race distances are shorter only 80 to 90km vs 305km for F1.

As I read, the new 2026 engine is going to be challenging because the PU will be limited by energy flow instead of fuel flow.
The next generation of Formula E cars has recharging, so they have reduced the battery and weight.