Red Bull RB20

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Farnborough
Farnborough
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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venkyhere wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:07 pm
Farnborough wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:17 am
Although there's obvious commonality with a brake system for most vehicles, feel there's need to disassociate this with ABS typical system, one that's reactive to wheel speed events.

This in RB 20 (mirrored across all chassis) is primarily led by algorithm determination to maximise recovery of energy by using the MGUK facility to generate high proportion of braking torque, only blending more effort through hydraulic caliper route when the capacity within recovery tapers to below braking demand.

This illustrated by the down sized disc and caliper equipment that effectively provides secondary "top up" torque, but would be completely overwhelmed if used as primary.

Agree that NO modulation of split across the axle (at either end) is the normal arrangement. Indicating that BBW control of that single line out to rear was not the culprit.

Fault seems to exist in the discreet line, after split, out to right rear caliper.
Right. The intention behind my comparison with road car ABS module was not in terms of functionality, but only in terms of architecture - BBW is like a man-in-the-middle-who-manipuiates-hydraulic-pressure, where driver pedal input, after getting proportioned front v/s back according to his brake-bias setting, the pressure to the rear axle is 'translated' to a different value, according to 'how much' of total "rear braking energy" needs to be shared between electrical loading v/s friction loading. Hope I understood the gist of what you are trying to convey.
And yes, the problem that Max had is pointing to some fault with the hydraulic line OR the caliper mechanism that went to the right rear wheel, and doesn't look like an issue with BBW itself.
Yes, agree with your "man in middle" description, and proprtioning effect.

There's not very good public view of these system to concisely evaluate from our perspective.

Something on RB 20 though ... its moved to a single pot fluid reservoir, from a little bath-tub shape previously, with that feeding the two mastercylinder which was visible on bulkhead. This new type is the only component now visible outside bulkhead, so whether it then splits (logical in my view) to still feed two cylinder, we can't see.

Conventional arrangement of mechanical brake bias has two cylinder pushed by rocking lever, moving fulcrum that can be pushed across to one or other in then giving hydraulic pressure bias to either one.

Now you can see them changing bias in software on screen (steering wheel) this should require something like a stepper / servo to accommodate mechanical shift in some way. Wondering if that's present still, the mechanical facility that is.

It COULD though now be just contained in software, potentially. With a fixed bias on hydraulic to give the "emergency" safety link on rear line should that eventuality arise.
But, with software algorithm controlling all of the regen facility in programmed proportion (hence the screen driven command) to give all "race" function bias needs.
This would allow reduction of pedal box complexity, removing component, reduction in brake system hysteris/stiction effect in mechanical control etc etc. The mastercylinder can still have two separate front and rear fluid handling (most road vehicles do this) with integrated front and rear pressure bias internal to that component.

The single fluid reservoir may indicate this in place, or with a simple Y feed inside bulkhead, then nothing of the sort :D

Farnborough
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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taperoo2k wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:30 am
Scarbs has a bit more info on what the issue might have been with the rear brake.
https://x.com/ScarbsTech/status/1772389 ... 21315?s=20
Yes, this statement of adverse pressure in system by their monitoring, also Marko statement of "caliper remained on" says that the pistons were clamping the pads continuously.

Further, initially seen as "dragging " they were probably hoping for some pad wear to aliviate the problem, hence initial monitoring and keep running. What seems to have happened is that each brake application appears to have re established pad position onto disc .... suggesting a one way hydraulic effect in that feed line ... thus to preventing the pads naturally retracting as they'd normally do when pedal pressure removed.
Something mechanical in that line seems to have failed to some extent to cause this effect.
Anyone noticed the "chunk" of component falling out onto track before it got back to pits? Looked like the failing disc rotor had exited.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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The pistons in the caliper pushes onto the pads to clamp the disc when hydraulic pressure builds-up behind pistons by brake pedal being pushed upon. As soon as hydraulic pressure is released by brake pedal the pistons will retract into their caliper bore releasing any pressure on the pads, the retraction of the pistons is effected by the 'square section seals installed in the piston bore. This system automatically adjusts the pads to the disc/compensates for pad/disc wear.

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Mattchu
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:24 am
The pistons in the caliper pushes onto the pads to clamp the disc when hydraulic pressure builds-up behind pistons by brake pedal being pushed upon. As soon as hydraulic pressure is released by brake pedal the pistons will* retract into their caliper bore releasing any pressure on the pads, the retraction of the pistons is effected by the 'square section seals installed in the piston bore. This system automatically adjusts the pads to the disc/compensates for pad/disc wear.
*Should...
Iv`e had brake binding on a car and like an idiot touched the disc, thus proper burnt the end of my finger :oops: Iv`e never done it again and always spit on the disc first now if checking.
I can only imagine how hot an F1 brake disc would get if partially "stuck on", no wonder it set on fire, maybe coming back to the pits wasn`t the best idea as more of the car could have got damaged!
Sounds like either a damaged line/valve or could it potentially be a software issue?

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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Farnborough wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:17 am
... This in RB 20 (mirrored across all chassis) is primarily led by algorithm determination to maximise recovery of energy by using the MGUK facility to generate high proportion of braking torque, only blending more effort through hydraulic caliper route when the capacity within recovery tapers to below braking demand.
... This illustrated by the down sized disc and caliper equipment that effectively provides secondary "top up" torque, but would be completely overwhelmed if used as primary.
the above sounds like a claim that the GU-K action is the major part of the rear braking work ....
it isn't ....
it's the minor part

2026 will be interesting though (FE could tell us something about 350 kW GU-K action)

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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The problem with the right rear brake of the RB car in Australia was solely to do with the hydraulic brake system and had noting to do with the ERS or electronics involved with the rear braking system.

Venturiation
Venturiation
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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From what I heard, RB is switching to a new base, although it is not a huge change.

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Stu
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Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Venturiation wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:04 pm
From what I heard, RB is switching to a new base, although it is not a huge change.
Translation please!
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Shorty
Shorty
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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RB is Racing Bulls isn’t it?
RBR is Red Bull Racing

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organic
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Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Stu wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:16 pm
Venturiation wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:04 pm
From what I heard, RB is switching to a new base, although it is not a huge change.
Translation please!
From what I heard, RB is switching to a new floor, although it is not a huge change.

Alpine has a new front wing and updates to reduce vehicle weight.

I will share information about other teams as it becomes available.

Rikhart
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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Base = floor? Probably.

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kediown
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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Rikhart wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:11 pm
Base = floor? Probably.
It means as floor in this context, can confirm as a Turkish native

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Stu
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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Thank you
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

ANDY238
ANDY238
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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Red bull sidepods
The airflow entering from the side of the sidepod appears to bypass the cooling mechanism and exit directly from the rear.
In this photo, you can finally see the pass-through duct.


update of
A new intake duct has been added to the outside of the base of the halo.
Rather than a lack of cooling, isn't it added to control the turbulence in this area?

ANDY238
ANDY238
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Re: Red Bull RB20

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Rear wing