2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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"Most tracks do not allow the MGU-K recover 2MJ per lap under braking (I AGREE) alone, they have to lift-and-cost, or use another method, to generate 2MJ". No. I do not agree with these last 2. You are totally wrong in saying that they have to 'lift-and-cost' TO help generate the 2MJ. This as lift-and-cost is only used to save fuel and nothing to do with generation. The ''ANOTHER METHOD''. any other method to generate by the MGU-K OTHER than under braking will be considered as 'extra harvesting by the rule makers, As was the case before. BUT NOW. We can either continue this discussion on these line, ei- "me being repeatedly being asked to prove what I am saying, while I try my best to do so, or now being my turn to ask you/those others that say the MGU-K (PRESENT SYTEM/RULES) can or is allowed to generate/harvest other than under braking to come-up with prof of the system being allowed to do so.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:36 am
any other method to generate by the MGU-K OTHER than under braking will be considered as 'extra harvesting by the rule makers, As was the case before.
untrue

extra harvesting is harvesting more than 2 MJ/lap
(this done by turning MGUK-generated electrical energy into MGUH-generated electrical energy before storage)

non-brake harvesting was/is allowed provided the total harvest doesn't exceed 2 MJ/lap


this thread is about the 2026-rules cars
continuing a 5 year sterile argument about 2014-rules cars isn't useful

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:24 am
this thread is about the 2026-rules cars
continuing a 5 year sterile argument about 2014-rules cars isn't useful
And the 2026 rules definitely allow energy recovery in more ways than just under braking.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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TC. Do not fall into the same ''STERIL'' arguments yourself, Just go ahead and quote prof that the rules and spirits of the rules allows MGU-K NON-BRAKE harvesting.
Last edited by saviour stivala on Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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I thought it was mentioned than an additional 30kg of fuel was permitted for generating electricity?

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:03 pm
I thought it was mentioned than an additional 30kg of fuel was permitted for generating electricity?
The '30kg of additional fuel to generate electricity was quoted as 'mentioned' in regards the new for 2026 power unit regulations.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Assuming 10s of braking at maximum recovery power per lap, that gives 3.5MJ of energy.

The revised energy recovery allowed is 8.5MJ.

That leaves 5MJ per lap to be recovered from burning fuel.

Assuming an average efficiency of 45% during recovery, that means 11.1MJ of fuel energy needs to burned per laps for electricity recovery.

The allowed energy density for the fuel is 38 to 41MJ/kg.

The worst case is 38MJ/kg.

11.1MJ/38MJ/kg = 0.29kg per lap.

50 lap race = 14.6kg
60 lap race = 17.5kg

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2024 3:08 am
gruntguru wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2024 2:03 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2024 10:34 am
. . .
AMuS (Gruner) has quite recently written that the F1 cars use 30% of the fuel to generate electricity
No doubt he means 15%.
50% - waste heat
35% - power to drive wheels
15% - generate electricity
As I said any fuel burned to generate electricity at present is done by the MGU-H/said electricity generated is generated by MGU-H only "capturing and making use of exhaust energy that would otherwise have gone to waste". AND also agree that it is done when/while the ICE is operating/running at its peak efficiency "producing the highest percentage of the potential energy in the fuel and delivering it to the crankshaft''. That 'electricity produced' is a plus to the 2mj maximum permitted per-lap that can be produced under braking by the MGU-K "capturing and making use of brake energy that could otherwise have gone to waste''. Of course all this is as the system is at present.
True. But also irrelevant to the point of recovering by K.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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"True but also irrelevant to the point of recovering by 'K'''. Cannot but agree that after all mine was a contribution to an irrelevant point to a subject at hand post. The problem is that while 'irrelevant' to the point at hand at a certain point in time post are a norm, They are so only up to when it doesn't suits one, This is no different from. while one is contributing to the point at hand at the time, in the same breath he throws in ''This tread is supposed to be about the 2026 formula and not the present one''. Which to me it sounds like '' While contributing to your raised point with an irrelevant point,"i am not liking what i am reading, ''this is supposed to be about 2026 and not the present''.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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I'm told there is a new F1 design proposed - called the Stivala

designed to comply with rules that don't exist ....
it has rear wheel drive from the ICE and front wheel drive and recovery from the MGU-K .....
so preventing any generation from ICE power

... seems good to me !!
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Seems good to me too. But than we will both be risking being told by those that so suits them to do so, that it is neither present nor the original one at hand, the new for 2026 formula. and plus to all that, it still would not have contributed any evidence as to the questions asked in regards the rules allowing harvesting by the 'K' other than under braking.

michl420
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Most people here think mguk harvest under acceleration and/or full throttle is going on now and of corse will in the 2026 regulation. Because it makes sense and, it is not forbidden in the rule book if I am not overlook something.

gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:34 pm
I'm told there is a new F1 design proposed - called the Stivala

designed to comply with rules that don't exist ....
it has rear wheel drive from the ICE and front wheel drive and recovery from the MGU-K .....
so preventing any generation from ICE power
Why not drive the rear wheels with the ICE and simultaneously harvest from the front wheels. This "stivala" thing will be easy to circumvent - unless the teams decide to suddenly start abiding by the "guiding design principles" (which they have never done).
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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As I said, this here new idea seems good to me too, But as I also said, the original thread is being diverted away from not only the 'already diverted, that of the present formula but also from the original one of 2026. But then, it seems OK if done by some but not some others when arguments dry's-up. This tactic seems to work wounders for accumulations of up-votes.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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michl420 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:10 pm
Most people here think mguk harvest under acceleration and/or full throttle is going on now and of corse will in the 2026 regulation. Because it makes sense and, it is not forbidden in the rule book if I am not overlook something.
I don't think many think it's going on now. It's much better to use the H, because that recovers otherwise unusable energy.