2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:47 am
wuzak wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:31 am
btw, if the ICE is doing 10,500rpm at Loews Hairpin, the car will be doing ~100km/h or more in 1st gear.
In some way shape or form, Newey is implying that the ICE would be disengaged from the wheels and spooled up to generate electricity, for a competitive advantage.
I don't think he is actually saying that, but rather that is the interpretation of the author of the article.

While decoupling the wheels from the ICE to generate power at Loews hairpin may be possible, just rolling through the corner, most situations where the driver is at part throttle power will still need to be sent to the wheels.

The ICE will make more power than necessary, and the MGU will generate the difference between ICE power and the power required to drive the car.

An example would be that the driver wants 300kW at the wheels. The ICE makes 400kW and the MHU generates 100kW, leaving 300kW to drive the wheels.

TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:47 am
Could it not be done with the clutch in ?
If they don't also need drive to the wheels.

And the clutch would have to be operated manually.

TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:47 am
Maybe he's pointing to an obvious loophole in the writing of the rules which will see this being done for a competitive advantage.
Maybe he has access to the rules surrounding the use of the gearbox and clutch. These haven't yet been published, and likely not finalised.

TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:47 am
Newey is the one saying it. Not me. And he said something similar awhile back already.
He talked about the ICE working hard. Not the ICE decoupling from the wheels to generate power.

TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:47 am
You are saying that the cars will be set up the exact same with just less ICE power correct ?
I doubt too much will change with the gearbox and clutch rules. There is likely to be fewer gears in the gearbox.

We do know that the ICE will deliver power to the rear wheels via the gearbox and clutch, and that the MGUK will connect to the front of the ICE crankshaft with a fixed speed ratio.

TeamKoolGreen
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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'^ It looks like a direct quote to me.

Here it is again

This could still cause some strange situations at some circuits. "It's certainly going to be a strange formula in as much as the engines will be working flat-chat as generators just about the whole time," Newey told Autosport. "So, the prospect of the engine working hard in the middle of Loews hairpin is going to take some getting used to."

And he specifically says "middle of the Loews hairpin." Newey has seen the tests and seen the simulations. None of us have. He is giving us a very big inside scoop on what he seen in those tests and sims. And that is the ICE being flat out in the middle of the Loews hairpin.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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he (Mr Newey) isn't saying that the ICE will be making full power
he's saying 'flat-chat' which means it will be making (full) torque in response to the driver's foot being fully down

for the last 11 years the ICE torque is limited for each and all rpm by the fuel rate being limited said rpm
and the GU-K activity is limited for all ICE rpm by the MGU-K torque being capped to 200 Nm at or below c.5720 rpm
(eg currently the MGU-K isn't 120 kW regardless of rpm - at Loew's corner the K power is Lo(e)wer than 120 kW)

loosely the 2026 system .....
at peak rpm per design 1000 V and 350 A .... (350 kW) ....
at capping rpm would be 600 V and 583 A .... (350 kW) ...
at Loew's rpm would be 400 V and 583 A ..... (233 kW)
the capping is what the electrics designer wants (otherwise at low rpm full power current would be excessive)
capping would be far greater if the MGU-K didn't work through that handy 8 speed gearbox

loosely ....
rpm is voltage ..... (regardless of torque)
torque is current ....(regardless of rpm)

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:41 am
he (Mr Newey) isn't saying that the ICE will be making full power
he's saying 'flat-chat' which means it will be making (full) torque in response to the driver's foot being fully down
Newey is, IMO, saying that the ICE will be making as much power as it can in slow corners when the driver's foot is off the throttle/at partial throttle.

Such as the example of Loews Hairpin, the slowest corner on the calendar.

That is, the ICE will be working harder in such corners than it currently is.

This is to generate the maximum allowed energy over a lap.

There will be some areas where partial throttle will have the MGUK deploying alongside the ICE.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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TeamKoolGreen wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:18 pm
FW17 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:08 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:16 am


Maybe they will go to neutral gear after 8th
They won't have to. The throttle pedal and gears only control the electric output. The ICE will be controlled by a computer that is just determining how much electricity to generate at any given time.

On some of the straight stretches , depending on the track, one could assume that the ICE will be at near idle going down the straight too. Full revs in the corners and idle on the straights.

This coupled with the active aero is pure madness but what can we do about it.. Except shut it off.
This is nonsense. They will use the ICE as much as possible. They will use it to generate only as much as there's a gain to be had. Mainly so that they can use full electric power for acceleration.
It doesn't mean they wont use the ICE as well. 800kW is will accelerate tha car a lot faster than 400.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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wuzak wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:56 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:41 am
he (Mr Newey) isn't saying that the ICE will be making full power
he's saying 'flat-chat' which means it will be making (full) torque in response to the driver's foot being fully down
Newey is, IMO, saying that the ICE will be making as much power as it can in slow corners when the driver's foot is off the throttle/at partial throttle.
Such as the example of Loews Hairpin, the slowest corner on the calendar.
That is, the ICE will be working harder in such corners than it currently is.
This is to generate the maximum allowed energy over a lap.
There will be some areas where partial throttle will have the MGUK deploying alongside the ICE.
what I should have said was the system's 'foot' being fully down
the driver's foot is on the accelerator pedal not the throttle
the driver's foot is never on the throttle - but we can for convenience say the system's foot is

but the F1 ICE being a more-or-less a constant torque device .....
it cannot at the Loew's 4500 rpm find 350 kW to give to the MGU-K .....
but that's ok as the MGU-K can't accept 350 kW of mechanical power at that 4500 rpm

to escape the above limitations the PU would need decoupling from the gearbox as others have said

the 2026 system has a more difficult job of hiding this situation and escaping accusations of automation/driver aids

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:20 am
but the F1 ICE being a more-or-less a constant torque device .....
it cannot at the Loew's 4500 rpm find 350 kW to give to the MGU-K .....
but that's ok as the MGU-K can't accept 350 kW of mechanical power at that 4500 rpm
No, but it should be able to provide 100kW, or so.

If I am reading the partial throttle fuel flow regs right.

cheeRS
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:20 am
wuzak wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:56 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:41 am
he (Mr Newey) isn't saying that the ICE will be making full power
he's saying 'flat-chat' which means it will be making (full) torque in response to the driver's foot being fully down
Newey is, IMO, saying that the ICE will be making as much power as it can in slow corners when the driver's foot is off the throttle/at partial throttle.
Such as the example of Loews Hairpin, the slowest corner on the calendar.
That is, the ICE will be working harder in such corners than it currently is.
This is to generate the maximum allowed energy over a lap.
There will be some areas where partial throttle will have the MGUK deploying alongside the ICE.
what I should have said was the system's 'foot' being fully down
the driver's foot is on the accelerator pedal not the throttle
the driver's foot is never on the throttle - but we can for convenience say the system's foot is

but the F1 ICE being a more-or-less a constant torque device .....
it cannot at the Loew's 4500 rpm find 350 kW to give to the MGU-K .....
but that's ok as the MGU-K can't accept 350 kW of mechanical power at that 4500 rpm

to escape the above limitations the PU would need decoupling from the gearbox as others have said

the 2026 system has a more difficult job of hiding this situation and escaping accusations of automation/driver aids

Exactly.

Further when Newey says "working hard in the middle of the Lowes hairpin", technically - if you look at telemetry - the driver is more coasting through the middle of the Lowes hairpin with very little throttle. So how would the ICE be working hard in the middle of the corner if it was driving the ? This implies drivers will have to floor it/brake boost in every part of the track that was formerly coasting. This is critical. The only way the ICE could be "working hard" would be if it was operating in generator mode, not driving the wheels.

This is the whole point of his statement, namely, that it would out of the ordinary ("take some getting used to") because a car coasting through the middle of the slowest corner in F1 would be using it's engine at full load. Whether that means decoupling/slipping/disengaging, we're not clear on, but Newey is going to be just about the best reference on this that I can imagine.
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AR3-GP
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Using the ICE to recharge the battery is not an efficient use of the hybrid system. The hybrid system should be in place to collect 100% of the energy that would otherwise be wasted under normal braking.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:04 pm

..... The hybrid system should be in place to collect 100% of the energy that would otherwise be wasted under normal braking.
peak braking power nowadays is c.5000 kW - and for 2026 may be c.3000 kW
recovering 100% of the braking energy would be counterproductive
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TeamKoolGreen
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Whether it is efficient or not doesn't matter. Its all about making a corporate slogan. It also doesn't matter one iota what real F1 fans and core supporters of F1 think. It only matters what the NPC's think.

I think this "50% electric!!" is actually a worse slogan than what we have now. Which is just that they are hybrid. The NPC's that F1 is trying to appease with the slogan probably assumed hybrid meant they were more than 50% electric already.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:18 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:04 pm

..... The hybrid system should be in place to collect 100% of the energy that would otherwise be wasted under normal braking.
peak braking power nowadays is c.5000 kW - and for 2026 may be c.3000 kW
recovering 100% of the braking energy would be counterproductive
Counterproductive to what?

It is possible to use a fully regenerative braking system. They may just have larger stopping distances which has a knock on effect of being better for racing.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:04 pm
Using the ICE to recharge the battery is not an efficient use of the hybrid system. The hybrid system should be in place to collect 100% of the energy that would otherwise be wasted under normal braking.
Front recovery was quickly vetoed...
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:18 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:04 pm

..... The hybrid system should be in place to collect 100% of the energy that would otherwise be wasted under normal braking.
peak braking power nowadays is c.5000 kW - and for 2026 may be c.3000 kW
recovering 100% of the braking energy would be counterproductive
I think F1 could do with longer braking distances. It would help overtaking.

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:37 am
I think F1 could do with longer braking distances. It would help overtaking.
Perhaps not if the braking performance of the cars is the same, and the drivers have the same ability.

Xyz22
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/what ... /10599603/

Front wing active aero looks confirmed.
But there were two key questions that needed answering in the recent simulation work that threw up the stories.

The first was what was the minimum downforce level that an F1 car could get away with if the active aero was in its lowest position.

And the second was answering a question prompted by one unidentified team. This squad believed the active aero could work with only the rear wing moving – something that F1 and the FIA were never convinced about.

To get answers, a work plan was put in place involving three teams. This included a total 1,000 aero runs between them in recent weeks, as well as some simulator work on top to help fine-tune the elements and get the two answers needed.

On the first question, a lot of progress was made with aero mapping and development to give the FIA the direction needed to finalise the active aero specifics.

And on the second point of not having a moveable front wing, the simulator runs – which included those alarming spins – delivered a definite answer: there was no way active aero could involve just the rear wing.

As one source close to the development of the new rules said: “It absolutely confirmed what we thought in the first place. All of the teams said: ‘Yep, you’ve got to adjust the front wing if you adjust the rear wing’. It was no surprise to us.”

The simulator runs duly confirmed that F1’s 2026 aero plans will have to include both the front and rear wing moving, and have given a direction for sorting out the aero balance between the two.