Concept power units from 2030

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
DenBommer
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Concept power units from 2030

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"I know that the regulations for 2026 regarding the chassis are not yet fully settled. But I'm curious about which power units you think or would like to have from 2030 (or later).

Will F1 cars get a turbine engine this time, maybe a V4 or inline 4 (or even a inline 3)

Or will we go back to the roots and have a V8/V10 with synthetic fuel, possibly supported by electric motors?

What do you think? Or what would you like to see?"

Hoffman900
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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I’d be more curious what manufacturers will be in the series. I can definitely see at least 2 of them dropping out by then, especially if the 2026 rules are a whiff and F1 hemorrhages viewers.

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Zynerji
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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I think it must be a chemical->electrical conversion power unit. Retain the noise for the fans, and electric torque for the driver. I like the simple stuff like the turbine generator driving an electric gearbox that has integrated electric motors and a vector differential all in a single unit.

Lots of folk here like other stuff tho, so it will be interesting. I'm looking at the 2026 regs as the pain that is needed for serious change in the sport. It MUST get bad enough for fans to get on board with wholesale change for 2030.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Spec V10 from a single manufacturer running e-fuel and team build hybrid 200kW or so

DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:00 pm
I think it must be a chemical->electrical conversion power unit. Retain the noise for the fans, and electric torque for the driver. I like the simple stuff like the turbine generator driving an electric gearbox that has integrated electric motors and a vector differential all in a single unit.

Lots of folk here like other stuff tho, so it will be interesting. I'm looking at the 2026 regs as the pain that is needed for serious change in the sport. It MUST get bad enough for fans to get on board with wholesale change for 2030.
I'm a fan of that too. And the sound is part of the DNA of F1. Like your concept where an RDE powers a turbocharger. I see the electric part growing because I suspect FE will be able to match F1's lap times in 10-15 years, maybe even in race pace, especially if they go fully AWD.

It seems important to me that F1 remains the fastest cars (on circuits) from a marketing perspective.

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Zynerji
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 5:59 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:00 pm
I think it must be a chemical->electrical conversion power unit. Retain the noise for the fans, and electric torque for the driver. I like the simple stuff like the turbine generator driving an electric gearbox that has integrated electric motors and a vector differential all in a single unit.

Lots of folk here like other stuff tho, so it will be interesting. I'm looking at the 2026 regs as the pain that is needed for serious change in the sport. It MUST get bad enough for fans to get on board with wholesale change for 2030.
I'm a fan of that too. And the sound is part of the DNA of F1. Like your concept where an RDE powers a turbocharger. I see the electric part growing because I suspect FE will be able to match F1's lap times in 10-15 years, maybe even in race pace, especially if they go fully AWD.

It seems important to me that F1 remains the fastest cars (on circuits) from a marketing perspective.
RDE Turbo MGUH to the rescue! =D> =D> :mrgreen:

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:00 pm
... electric torque ....
no such thing
unless you mean something that the ICE could do but isn't allowed to do

DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 7:40 pm
DenBommer wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 5:59 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:00 pm
I think it must be a chemical->electrical conversion power unit. Retain the noise for the fans, and electric torque for the driver. I like the simple stuff like the turbine generator driving an electric gearbox that has integrated electric motors and a vector differential all in a single unit.

Lots of folk here like other stuff tho, so it will be interesting. I'm looking at the 2026 regs as the pain that is needed for serious change in the sport. It MUST get bad enough for fans to get on board with wholesale change for 2030.
I'm a fan of that too. And the sound is part of the DNA of F1. Like your concept where an RDE powers a turbocharger. I see the electric part growing because I suspect FE will be able to match F1's lap times in 10-15 years, maybe even in race pace, especially if they go fully AWD.

It seems important to me that F1 remains the fastest cars (on circuits) from a marketing perspective.
RDE Turbo MGUH to the rescue! =D> =D> :mrgreen:
Let’s hope so

Edit: i also hope they use in wheel motors by then. If you consider that the GEN3 evo of FE goes from 0-100 km/h in 1.83 seconds, it's impressive.

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Zynerji
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:29 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:00 pm
... electric torque ....
no such thing
unless you mean something that the ICE could do but isn't allowed to do
Like max torque @ 1RPM? 🤔

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:28 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:29 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:00 pm
... electric torque ....
no such thing
unless you mean something that the ICE could do but isn't allowed to do
Like max torque @ 1RPM? 🤔
contrary to the schoolboy-level wisdom of today ....
the archetypal electric motor has maximum torque independent of rpm ie 0 rpm, 1 rpm, 1000 rpm, 10000 rpm etc
the torque is a manifestation of current flow
eg EV 'inherent' torque is same/more at 150 mph as 15 mph - but it's reduced with speed or the battery would be flat in 5 min
reduced by using at each rpm such voltage to limit the current ie torque according to expectation and practicalities

I thought that here 'electric torque' meant having eg 1000 hp near the start of a straight and 500 hp in the middle
that's what's efficiency-advantageous and allowed to the F1 electric machine but withheld from the ICE ....
(by severely limiting the fuel rate whilst having no electric equivalent)
otherwise efficient ICE-only F1 could have eg 1000 hp near the start of the straight and 500 hp in the middle no problem

'no such thing' as such high efficiency electric machines combining high torque/low speed & low torque/high speed capability
F1 rules even prevent this - and they have an 8 speed gearbox instead
it's paradise for the electric system - constant high rpm/low torque


btw
Paxman Hi-Dyne rail diesel-mechanical gearless locos 70 years ago started pulling from zero rpm (differential supercharging)
eg a 100-truck goods train starts 1 truck then another etc so needs less torque when all 100 trucks are moving ....
by then the rpm is 200-300
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Zynerji
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:20 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:28 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:29 pm

no such thing
unless you mean something that the ICE could do but isn't allowed to do
Like max torque @ 1RPM? 🤔
contrary to the schoolboy-level wisdom of today ....
the archetypal electric motor has maximum torque independent of rpm ie 0 rpm, 1 rpm, 1000 rpm, 10000 rpm etc
the torque is a manifestation of current flow
eg EV 'inherent' torque is same/more at 150 mph as 15 mph - but it's reduced with speed or the battery would be flat in 5 min
reduced by using at each rpm such voltage to limit the current ie torque according to expectation and practicalities

I thought that here 'electric torque' meant having eg 1000 hp near the start of a straight and 500 hp in the middle
that's what's advantageous and given to the F1 electric machine but withheld from the ICE ....
(by severely limiting the fuel rate whilst having no electric equivalent)
otherwise efficient ICE-only F1 could have eg 1000 hp near the start of the straight and 500 hp in the middle no problem

'no such thing' as such high efficiency electric machines combining high torque/low speed & low torque/high speed capability
F1 rules even prevent this - and they have an 8 speed gearbox instead
it's paradise for the electric system - constant high rpm/low torque
Would the SynRM tech improve this at all?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:58 pm
Would the SynRM tech improve this at all?
if so they're already using it ...
(I mentioned it years ago)

toraabe
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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They should have increased the MGU-H to 200KW and the K to 250 KW

wuzak
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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toraabe wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:02 pm
They should have increased the MGU-H to 200KW and the K to 250 KW
The MGUH was not limited to a power level, but was constrained by how much could practically be recovered from the exhaust.

wuzak
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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with the 2026 PUs having a 4 year development time, it is unlikely that they will be replaced before 2035.