2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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There are no numbers right now, it's just speculation. We don't know if Stella means .4 over an average lap or .4 at Miami. In fact Stella hasn't even said numbers, he just said it wasn't an Austria step. But none the less, it looks on face value to be an Austria step at Miami, but I do think that the improvement will be less pronounced at other tracks. We will find out soon enough. Looking at the car there was a pronounced difference in the front handling, an agility that came to the car, not just speed in the corners.

Imola in '22 was a good track for us, though Ferrari were a bit faster, it is a track that we had previously liked. This year Ferrari vs Mclaren is 4-2 in Ferraris favour with the last two races being Mclaren Races and therefore Mclaren are the team in form. I don't think I can assume the Ferrari is faster here because I think we'd be pretty decent even without the upgrade, but I have the optimism that we will do well here.

However, there is a Ferrari upgrade coming and frankly no one really knows how well the Mclaren upgrade will work over the next couple of races, let alone how well the Ferrari upgrade will work. But I think that making the car more driveable will bring as much in terms of results as adding pure laptime to the car, if the drivers have the ability to raise the percentage of how much they were able to extract from this package and push it closer to its limit.

All in all, it could be an exciting weekend with plenty of reason to have a glass half full, or half empty, depending on your mood lol
Last edited by mwillems on Mon May 13, 2024 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Emag
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 3:39 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 3:29 pm
BMMR61 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 1:19 pm


Last season as the car became a more competitive beast and Oscar got the full upgrades he started to put together some very good drives. He clearly has a high ceiling of performance - speed, temperament, intelligence and hard work are hallmarks that will mark him as at least a top six driver once he has learned the craft of Pirelli tyre management. In fact he's nearly there now, the timing of the safety car and the clash with Carlos were very unfortunate - he could realistically been the driver to collect the win. I'm glad it was left for Lando though as it will prolong a healthy team rivalry.

Much of the media have been falling all over McLaren after rubbishing them and their prospects - how quickly some change their tune. I think we should, Like Stella, not be quick to judge the Miami win as being a sign that McLaren are now fully competitive with RedBull. It was a very good start for the upgrades on a track that has not been a McLaren friendly one, my expectations are that Max will be back on top but we, and probably Ferrari, are going to be getting closer to him. Maybe very tight in qualifying and a couple of tenths off in the race, but I'm guessing. The front definitely seems to be stronger and the top speed more competitive.
I only found data from formula.uno that the team added 4 tenths of a second. It's hard to say for sure, but the team knows the exact figures, and Stella didn't tell us exactly how much. For the first 5 grands prix, the average gap in the race was 6 tenths. So we shouldn't be surprised if further down the line we see Red Bull pull away. The good thing to consider is that now Red Bull won't be so far ahead of Ferrari and McLaren. Maybe you remember, even before the weekend in Miami I wrote that if the team reduces the gap in the race by at least 3 tenths, in that case at the finish McLaren will be 15-16 seconds behind Red Bull Verstappen. So, in the Miami race at the end of 19 laps Oscar was 3.6 seconds behind Max. Extrapolating that to the whole race, one would have hoped for an 11 second gap at the finish. That's a decent figure, considering Oscar's car had the old underbody, sidepods and engine cover.

Be that as it may, and the updated parts have already proven to be effective. New computing power, wind tunnel, simulator and other tools have proven to work. Stella reported that they had gotten exactly the numbers they had calculated at the base.
I don't think even Stella can say that based on one weekend, a sprint weekend at that on a track that is not the most representative.
I think that while the teams bringing an upgrade will have an expected gain or expected range based on their computers, I can't see how anyone including McLaren themselves could possibly conclude it is worth x amount based on one weekend.
I think ultimately it'll take 2 or 3 weekends on different tracks and temperatures before the real gain can be measured.
They have other tangible and measurable data. For example, load through certain corners/conditions, top speed, traction (acceleration out of certain target corners), average tire wear ... and more.

The point is, the team definitely knows the improvements in targeted areas. And using simulators, you can get an approximation on laptime gain for a specific track as well. But they will never make that number public. Just knowing that it was within targets, should be a good sign.

The 0.4s number being thrown around is because Zak said Oscar was missing 0.2s to Lando with half the upgrades. You can't make the assumption that the next 50% is going to be worth 0.2s though. He could have had the more impactful of the 50% (let's say, worth 0.3s of laptime around Miami). With the added 0.2s from the missing upgrades, that makes it worth 0.5s around Miami. But at the other end of the spectrum, he might have had a marginal part of the upgrade worth only 0.1s which makes the full upgrade worth 0.3s around Miami.

Anyway, the point is, all this number talk doesn't make much sense because we are lacking a lot of information. Unless McLaren themselves come out with a number, the only reference we have is their performance against competitors, which in Miami, was really good. Let's see how it pans out in the following weekends now.

LionsHeart
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:53 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:46 pm
dia6olo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 3:39 pm

I don't think even Stella can say that based on one weekend, a sprint weekend at that on a track that is not the most representative.
I think that while the teams bringing an upgrade will have an expected gain or expected range based on their computers, I can't see how anyone including McLaren themselves could possibly conclude it is worth x amount based on one weekend.
I think ultimately it'll take 2 or 3 weekends on different tracks and temperatures before the real gain can be measured.
Don't you understand? Stella himself said that based on sensors that measure downforce in the front wing and front suspension. That effort and suspension travel that turns out to be on the chassis. They have plenty of chassis spec data from Australia when the rear wing was exactly the same.

Fortunately for us fans and even more fortunate for the team engineers, the data on the track was completely confirmed against the background of the data that they themselves calculated on the basis of the simulator and other other computer systems.

It is unknown to us fans what the increase in downforce is and how much time we managed to play on the track. The same Will Joseph said after the race that these updates should work even better on other tracks. I remain calm because by my inner nature I have realistic expectations. And for now I’m extremely happy for the team if they are so happy that they received confirmation on the track.

Lando was happy with the settings he had on Friday and was unhappy with the car's performance on Saturday during qualifying. The beam wing was installed loaded, which was previously used at other Grand Prix, including Jeddah, Albert Park and Shanghai. Of course, everything was great in the race. But who knows what pace Lando would have had if they hadn't changed the settings?

Perhaps he would have gone even faster, and perhaps he would have worn out the tires faster and the pace would have been worse. In any case, I hope that in Imola they will select the fastest possible settings. At Imola, qualifications are important.

I’ll also add that the beam wing on Friday gave an increase in speed on straight sections. But on Saturday the speed decreased because a beam with a higher downforce was installed. At Imola there is a long stretch on the starting straight. Maximum speed is very important there. Therefore, I hope the team will choose the option with the least downforce.

https://i.ibb.co/Sdb18cW/9950-B58-E-BA3 ... 07-B91.png
It doesn't matter what the sensors measure they will only provide so much information.
For example it won't have told us anything about tyre degradation because we were at a track were there wasn't any.
Ultimately tyre deg is a significant factor in race pace and until we have seen what that looks like on various tracks and temperatures there is no way you can know what the upgrade is truly worth.
Well, it's already known. I've written about it before. We need to see how it will look like on the tracks, where the wear of tires will be higher and has previously also noted on what tracks McLaren this season closer to the leaders, and where further. So I do not understand your argumentation.

dia6olo
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:59 pm
dia6olo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:53 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:46 pm


Don't you understand? Stella himself said that based on sensors that measure downforce in the front wing and front suspension. That effort and suspension travel that turns out to be on the chassis. They have plenty of chassis spec data from Australia when the rear wing was exactly the same.

Fortunately for us fans and even more fortunate for the team engineers, the data on the track was completely confirmed against the background of the data that they themselves calculated on the basis of the simulator and other other computer systems.

It is unknown to us fans what the increase in downforce is and how much time we managed to play on the track. The same Will Joseph said after the race that these updates should work even better on other tracks. I remain calm because by my inner nature I have realistic expectations. And for now I’m extremely happy for the team if they are so happy that they received confirmation on the track.

Lando was happy with the settings he had on Friday and was unhappy with the car's performance on Saturday during qualifying. The beam wing was installed loaded, which was previously used at other Grand Prix, including Jeddah, Albert Park and Shanghai. Of course, everything was great in the race. But who knows what pace Lando would have had if they hadn't changed the settings?

Perhaps he would have gone even faster, and perhaps he would have worn out the tires faster and the pace would have been worse. In any case, I hope that in Imola they will select the fastest possible settings. At Imola, qualifications are important.

I’ll also add that the beam wing on Friday gave an increase in speed on straight sections. But on Saturday the speed decreased because a beam with a higher downforce was installed. At Imola there is a long stretch on the starting straight. Maximum speed is very important there. Therefore, I hope the team will choose the option with the least downforce.

https://i.ibb.co/Sdb18cW/9950-B58-E-BA3 ... 07-B91.png
It doesn't matter what the sensors measure they will only provide so much information.
For example it won't have told us anything about tyre degradation because we were at a track were there wasn't any.
Ultimately tyre deg is a significant factor in race pace and until we have seen what that looks like on various tracks and temperatures there is no way you can know what the upgrade is truly worth.
Well, it's already known. I've written about it before. We need to see how it will look like on the tracks, where the wear of tires will be higher and has previously also noted on what tracks McLaren this season closer to the leaders, and where further. So I do not understand your argumentation.
I'm not arguing I was just saying that I don't even see McLaren truly knowing the gain until the car has covered 2/3 races.

LionsHeart
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 6:03 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:59 pm
dia6olo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:53 pm

It doesn't matter what the sensors measure they will only provide so much information.
For example it won't have told us anything about tyre degradation because we were at a track were there wasn't any.
Ultimately tyre deg is a significant factor in race pace and until we have seen what that looks like on various tracks and temperatures there is no way you can know what the upgrade is truly worth.
Well, it's already known. I've written about it before. We need to see how it will look like on the tracks, where the wear of tires will be higher and has previously also noted on what tracks McLaren this season closer to the leaders, and where further. So I do not understand your argumentation.
I'm not arguing I was just saying that I don't even see McLaren truly knowing the gain until the car has covered 2/3 races.
Well, it’s not for me to judge. I just retold the words of the team leader. And I have no questions for him. So far he is doing his job very well. The team has rallied, the car is only getting faster, the direction of work was chosen correctly last year. They have a lot of different data, but here you are right, the more data from different tracks in different weather conditions, with different tire options, the updated cars are driven, the more accurate the result can be obtained.

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:59 pm


Well, it's already known. I've written about it before. We need to see how it will look like on the tracks, where the wear of tires will be higher and has previously also noted on what tracks McLaren this season closer to the leaders, and where further. So I do not understand your argumentation.
He certainly said the data from Miami matched the numbers at Woking. But that is all he has said. Others have suggested Imola will be better for this upgrade. But I do also think there is plenty left to see. There has also been no numbers of laptime gains from the team. It is just speculation as to the actual gain at Miami.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

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LionsHeart
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 6:23 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:59 pm


Well, it's already known. I've written about it before. We need to see how it will look like on the tracks, where the wear of tires will be higher and has previously also noted on what tracks McLaren this season closer to the leaders, and where further. So I do not understand your argumentation.
He certainly said the data from Miami matched the numbers at Woking. But that is all he has said. Others have suggested Imola will be better for this upgrade. But I do also think there is plenty left to see. There has also been no numbers of laptime gains from the team. It is just speculation as to the actual gain at Miami.
I can't judge this in advance. The package was designed to add value in all areas. Therefore, it is unknown where this package will work better, where less. This is also speculation. Comparing Miami's 2023 and 2024 onboard, the balance hasn't changed much in most corners. The main visible differences from the outside are visible only in turn 17. Without telemetry you can’t even say that the chassis has become faster. But now it has become easier to get to the apex, there is progress here.

I’ll add: from Lando’s onboard it was clear how Checo in front often missed the apex. Max had the same thing. Lando had no problem with this at all. It’s as if the problems McLaren had in previous years have migrated to the Red Bull chassis.

And further. During the entire race I didn’t see any understeer in Lando’s driving. Let's wait for the track, where the front tires wear out more. Maybe it will be clear how much more stable the car has become over the race distance.

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 7:39 pm
mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 6:23 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 5:59 pm


Well, it's already known. I've written about it before. We need to see how it will look like on the tracks, where the wear of tires will be higher and has previously also noted on what tracks McLaren this season closer to the leaders, and where further. So I do not understand your argumentation.
He certainly said the data from Miami matched the numbers at Woking. But that is all he has said. Others have suggested Imola will be better for this upgrade. But I do also think there is plenty left to see. There has also been no numbers of laptime gains from the team. It is just speculation as to the actual gain at Miami.
I can't judge this in advance. The package was designed to add value in all areas. Therefore, it is unknown where this package will work better, where less. This is also speculation. Comparing Miami's 2023 and 2024 onboard, the balance hasn't changed much in most corners. The main visible differences from the outside are visible only in turn 17. Without telemetry you can’t even say that the chassis has become faster. But now it has become easier to get to the apex, there is progress here.

I’ll add: from Lando’s onboard it was clear how Checo in front often missed the apex. Max had the same thing. Lando had no problem with this at all. It’s as if the problems McLaren had in previous years have migrated to the Red Bull chassis.

And further. During the entire race I didn’t see any understeer in Lando’s driving. Let's wait for the track, where the front tires wear out more. Maybe it will be clear how much more stable the car has become over the race distance.
The car was better than corner entry and exit so it is quite different now than last year. The relative balance might not look different because losing downforce from the floor removed downforce from the front and rear and better conditioning the flow has increased the low speed downforce at the front and rear.

It was Lando's engineer that suggested that Imola would be better show the strengths of the upgrade than Miami, so it comes from a solid source, but it still remains to be seen what happens.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

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BosF1
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Perhaps this might be a good podcast to listen to. It's the Imola preview, with Will Joseph (Norris' race engineer) among others. He says that the team wasn't expecting the upgrade to work this well in Miami and that the characteristics of the upgrades should suit medium/high speed corners more (e.g. Imola). Sounds like there is a real buzz in the McLaren team anticipating for the Emilia Romagna GP. And if anyone should know...

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zcDBw ... ZJjRxtIimg

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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BosF1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 8:55 pm
Perhaps this might be a good podcast to listen to. It's the Imola preview, with Will Joseph (Norris' race engineer) among others. He says that the team wasn't expecting the upgrade to work this well in Miami and that the characteristics of the upgrades should suit medium/high speed corners more (e.g. Imola). Sounds like there is a real buzz in the McLaren team anticipating for the Emilia Romagna GP. And if anyone should know...

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zcDBw ... ZJjRxtIimg
Yes that's the one. Thanks for posting. Definitely more substantial than speculation and it is backing up the idea that the Miami gains were more than .3 - .4 seconds, which I think is true and are probably Austria level gains, but not necessarily all down to the upgrade. However, Lando's engineer Will Joseph suggests the upgrade will work better at Imola. Though I suspect we may find that this is offset by a setup for a track with a mixture of corners losing some of the Miami advantage.

In any case, I'm feeling quite positive that the weekend could go well, but nervous of what other teams will bring in terms of upgrades.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

LionsHeart
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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BosF1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 8:55 pm
Perhaps this might be a good podcast to listen to. It's the Imola preview, with Will Joseph (Norris' race engineer) among others. He says that the team wasn't expecting the upgrade to work this well in Miami and that the characteristics of the upgrades should suit medium/high speed corners more (e.g. Imola). Sounds like there is a real buzz in the McLaren team anticipating for the Emilia Romagna GP. And if anyone should know...

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zcDBw ... ZJjRxtIimg
OK then. We'll see, we'll see. If everything turns out exactly like this, then I will be very happy. But I think the density between Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren will now be higher than at the beginning of the season.

LionsHeart
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 8:55 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 7:39 pm
mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 6:23 pm


He certainly said the data from Miami matched the numbers at Woking. But that is all he has said. Others have suggested Imola will be better for this upgrade. But I do also think there is plenty left to see. There has also been no numbers of laptime gains from the team. It is just speculation as to the actual gain at Miami.
I can't judge this in advance. The package was designed to add value in all areas. Therefore, it is unknown where this package will work better, where less. This is also speculation. Comparing Miami's 2023 and 2024 onboard, the balance hasn't changed much in most corners. The main visible differences from the outside are visible only in turn 17. Without telemetry you can’t even say that the chassis has become faster. But now it has become easier to get to the apex, there is progress here.

I’ll add: from Lando’s onboard it was clear how Checo in front often missed the apex. Max had the same thing. Lando had no problem with this at all. It’s as if the problems McLaren had in previous years have migrated to the Red Bull chassis.

And further. During the entire race I didn’t see any understeer in Lando’s driving. Let's wait for the track, where the front tires wear out more. Maybe it will be clear how much more stable the car has become over the race distance.
The car was better than corner entry and exit so it is quite different now than last year. The relative balance might not look different because losing downforce from the floor removed downforce from the front and rear and better conditioning the flow has increased the low speed downforce at the front and rear.

It was Lando's engineer that suggested that Imola would be better show the strengths of the upgrade than Miami, so it comes from a solid source, but it still remains to be seen what happens.
I didn't understand your first paragraph. You mention the loss of pressure from the floor as a result of the rule change, when the edge of the floor was raised by 15 millimeters? Well, in this case I don't care. After all, the floor rules are the same for 2023 and 2024. And I’m not considering 2022 at all.

Do you know what is clearly visible on the onboard? Much more downforce and stability. The handling itself is similar in some ways, but has changed a little in others. The chassis corners entry confidently and exits confidently. But traction is already high since the beginning of the year. And now understeer has left. At least in Miami. I'll be keeping a close eye on this going forward. And while the Miami 2024 onboard is the first time that Lando drove without driving errors. That's how stable the chassis was.

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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I do think Lando can beat Max in a straight fight,” Brown said in an exclusive interview with Autosport.

“I think it would be an awesome fight, I think many races would end in tears – for one or the other, or both.

“But I think as far as raw talent can be, I’ve not seen someone faster than Lando.

“I’m sure Max is just as fast, I’m sure some people will disagree and ultimately, we’ll never know until you see them in the same car.

“But, from everything I can see of Lando, I don’t see a faster racing driver out there.

“What’s exciting is Oscar [Piastri] can match him. As he gets more experience I think he’ll match him more often.”

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/norri ... /10610586/
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 10:11 pm
mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 8:55 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 7:39 pm


I can't judge this in advance. The package was designed to add value in all areas. Therefore, it is unknown where this package will work better, where less. This is also speculation. Comparing Miami's 2023 and 2024 onboard, the balance hasn't changed much in most corners. The main visible differences from the outside are visible only in turn 17. Without telemetry you can’t even say that the chassis has become faster. But now it has become easier to get to the apex, there is progress here.

I’ll add: from Lando’s onboard it was clear how Checo in front often missed the apex. Max had the same thing. Lando had no problem with this at all. It’s as if the problems McLaren had in previous years have migrated to the Red Bull chassis.

And further. During the entire race I didn’t see any understeer in Lando’s driving. Let's wait for the track, where the front tires wear out more. Maybe it will be clear how much more stable the car has become over the race distance.
The car was better than corner entry and exit so it is quite different now than last year. The relative balance might not look different because losing downforce from the floor removed downforce from the front and rear and better conditioning the flow has increased the low speed downforce at the front and rear.

It was Lando's engineer that suggested that Imola would be better show the strengths of the upgrade than Miami, so it comes from a solid source, but it still remains to be seen what happens.
I didn't understand your first paragraph. You mention the loss of pressure from the floor as a result of the rule change, when the edge of the floor was raised by 15 millimeters? Well, in this case I don't care. After all, the floor rules are the same for 2023 and 2024. And I’m not considering 2022 at all.

Do you know what is clearly visible on the onboard? Much more downforce and stability. The handling itself is similar in some ways, but has changed a little in others. The chassis corners entry confidently and exits confidently. But traction is already high since the beginning of the year. And now understeer has left. At least in Miami. I'll be keeping a close eye on this going forward. And while the Miami 2024 onboard is the first time that Lando drove without driving errors. That's how stable the chassis was.
I think the translator and my grammar may have sent you down the wrong path.

What I'm saying is that the balance hasn't changed between this and last year because the front and rear were equally bad in slow corners and now they are equally better. This is because the fix wasn't to increase dowforce directly. The fix was to stop the floor for stalling at low speed. The stalling floor being the cause of a loss of downforce at the front and rear of the car.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

LionsHeart
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 10:15 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 10:11 pm
mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 8:55 pm


The car was better than corner entry and exit so it is quite different now than last year. The relative balance might not look different because losing downforce from the floor removed downforce from the front and rear and better conditioning the flow has increased the low speed downforce at the front and rear.

It was Lando's engineer that suggested that Imola would be better show the strengths of the upgrade than Miami, so it comes from a solid source, but it still remains to be seen what happens.
I didn't understand your first paragraph. You mention the loss of pressure from the floor as a result of the rule change, when the edge of the floor was raised by 15 millimeters? Well, in this case I don't care. After all, the floor rules are the same for 2023 and 2024. And I’m not considering 2022 at all.

Do you know what is clearly visible on the onboard? Much more downforce and stability. The handling itself is similar in some ways, but has changed a little in others. The chassis corners entry confidently and exits confidently. But traction is already high since the beginning of the year. And now understeer has left. At least in Miami. I'll be keeping a close eye on this going forward. And while the Miami 2024 onboard is the first time that Lando drove without driving errors. That's how stable the chassis was.
I think the translator and my grammar may have sent you down the wrong path.

What I'm saying is that the balance hasn't changed between this and last year because the front and rear were equally bad in slow corners and now they are equally better. This is because the fix wasn't to increase dowforce directly. The fix was to stop the floor for stalling at low speed. The stalling floor being the cause of a loss of downforce at the front and rear of the car.
There, now I totally get your point. The air conditioning thing is clear.