2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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mclaren111
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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SiLo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 9:05 am
venkyhere wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 6:58 am
7 and 9 are skill corners, driver will make a difference to laptime.
14-15 kerb riding ability will contribute a lot to laptime. Ferrari should be excellent here.
Overtaking should be difficult, especially since many runoffs are now gravel.

Overall, as a layout, nothing really exciting except T7 and T9. Compared to this 'traditional' track, I find a layout like Jeddah to be more exciting (because there is opportunity for driver skill in the long high speed corners). But traditionalists will say the exact opposite.
All the corners are skill corners..

=D> =D>

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bananapeel23
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 10:43 pm
RedBull upgrades tend to give solid gains but can't say the same for Ferrari. I still expect them to be half a second down in race pace. McLaren's performance last time out in Miami, I feel, was very track specific. They too will be half a second down.
My understanding is that Ferrari has actually had great correlation since they brought the upgrade package that god rid of the bathtubs in 2023. Their upgrades all appear to have brought performance since, and they appear to have finally solved their tyre deg and narrow setup window.

They admittedly haven’t brought many major upgrades since then, but I see no reason to doubt them now that their main issues with deg and the narrow setup window have been resolved. Back in 2022 and early 2023 those were always the things that were hampering them. Like I’m sure the SF23 and F1-75 (pre-TD39) looked amazing and produced great results in the wind tunnel. But ultimately it doesn’t matter how much peak performance your upgrades bring if they force you to raise the floor for the car to be predictable.

Now that they have a package without those two major issues and no correlation issues, upgrades should be significantly more likely to bring the performance improvements that Ferrari expected, and also maybe easier to develop without having to be afraid of said issues.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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venkyhere wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 6:58 am
7 and 9 are skill corners, driver will make a difference to laptime.
14-15 kerb riding ability will contribute a lot to laptime. Ferrari should be excellent here.
Overtaking should be difficult, especially since many runoffs are now gravel.

Overall, as a layout, nothing really exciting except T7 and T9. Compared to this 'traditional' track, I find a layout like Jeddah to be more exciting (because there is opportunity for driver skill in the long high speed corners). But traditionalists will say the exact opposite.
The long high speed corners aren't skill corners - they're high downforce corners where the driver just takes the path of least resistance in either constant 6th or constant 8th depending on which bit of the track he's on. The skill corners at Jeddah are the medium/lower speed ones.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 2:17 pm
venkyhere wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 6:58 am
7 and 9 are skill corners, driver will make a difference to laptime.
14-15 kerb riding ability will contribute a lot to laptime. Ferrari should be excellent here.
Overtaking should be difficult, especially since many runoffs are now gravel.

Overall, as a layout, nothing really exciting except T7 and T9. Compared to this 'traditional' track, I find a layout like Jeddah to be more exciting (because there is opportunity for driver skill in the long high speed corners). But traditionalists will say the exact opposite.
The long high speed corners aren't skill corners - they're high downforce corners where the driver just takes the path of least resistance in either constant 6th or constant 8th depending on which bit of the track he's on. The skill corners at Jeddah are the medium/lower speed ones.
7 and 9 are not at all high-speed corners. Medium speed at best.
Even otherwise, it's not the speed of the corner that brings out the difference between a good driver and a great one. It's the 'length' of the corner. There are different driving styles - gain time in entry and sacrifice exit and vice versa. It depends on what comes after the corner and what came before the corner. Then comes the driving mode - attack or tyre preservation or fuel preservation. The great drivers choose their point of braking, rotation and throttle, and the driving line so as to do one or the other style, inorder to result in minimal laptime, within the mode that they are bound by and within the limitations of the car of course.
If corners are short length in terms of distance (not the time it takes or the speed that's involved), then the opportunity to make a difference by choosing one style over the other is minimal. So there wont be much to tell, say a simple 90 degree bend or a chicane with sausage kerb.
It's the corner distance (how many times the corner goes on for, w.r.t the length of the car) that truly reveals skill difference.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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venkyhere wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 5:07 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 2:17 pm
venkyhere wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 6:58 am
7 and 9 are skill corners, driver will make a difference to laptime.
14-15 kerb riding ability will contribute a lot to laptime. Ferrari should be excellent here.
Overtaking should be difficult, especially since many runoffs are now gravel.

Overall, as a layout, nothing really exciting except T7 and T9. Compared to this 'traditional' track, I find a layout like Jeddah to be more exciting (because there is opportunity for driver skill in the long high speed corners). But traditionalists will say the exact opposite.
The long high speed corners aren't skill corners - they're high downforce corners where the driver just takes the path of least resistance in either constant 6th or constant 8th depending on which bit of the track he's on. The skill corners at Jeddah are the medium/lower speed ones.
7 and 9 are not at all high-speed corners. Medium speed at best.
Even otherwise, it's not the speed of the corner that brings out the difference between a good driver and a great one. It's the 'length' of the corner. There are different driving styles - gain time in entry and sacrifice exit and vice versa. It depends on what comes after the corner and what came before the corner. Then comes the driving mode - attack or tyre preservation or fuel preservation. The great drivers choose their point of braking, rotation and throttle, and the driving line so as to do one or the other style, inorder to result in minimal laptime, within the mode that they are bound by and within the limitations of the car of course.
If corners are short length in terms of distance (not the time it takes or the speed that's involved), then the opportunity to make a difference by choosing one style over the other is minimal. So there wont be much to tell, say a simple 90 degree bend or a chicane with sausage kerb.
It's the corner distance (how many times the corner goes on for, w.r.t the length of the car) that truly reveals skill difference.
I was talking about Jeddah as you said that Jeddah's high speed corners require skill. I disagree. Jeddah's fast corners don't require much skill because they're basically flat sweeps.

As for the rest of your post, slow corners are just as requiring of skill - perhaps more so - because that is where time can be made and lost so easily. Why? Because the car spends longer "in" the corner and messing up braking or throttle application only adds to the length of time that the car isn't accelerating most efficiently.

Don't forget that a driver's job is to ensure that the car is maximising the available acceleration at all times. Why? Because braking, turning and accelerating are all accelerations and the best drivers get the best resultant acceleration at any given moment.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 5:14 pm
I was talking about Jeddah as you said that Jeddah's high speed corners require skill. I disagree. Jeddah's fast corners don't require much skill because they're basically flat sweeps.
It's not the 'high-speed' that I was hinting at. It was the 'long' that I meant. Jeddah has many back to back fast sweepers all at full throttle. There is driver skill in positioning the car (the lines picked, talking about a few inches differences) that determines how efficient the braking is going to be, for the next slow/medium turn ; and how much tyre was burned over the high-speed. As an example, take 16-17 in Jeddah. It's full throttle from 17 till 22, where there is a dirty kerb between 22-23, before being back to full throttle at the exit of 23-24, which is going to determine how the giant sweeper/straight from 24 to 27 is going to be. How the car comes out of 17, how straight is the straightish line chosen through 18-19-20-21, is going to determine how much left-handedly the car is loaded approaching 22 , is going to determine the braking for 22-23, is going to influence the rotation through 22-23 and the exit at 24.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 5:14 pm
As for the rest of your post, slow corners are just as requiring of skill - perhaps more so - because that is where time can be made and lost so easily. Why? Because the car spends longer "in" the corner and messing up braking or throttle application only adds to the length of time that the car isn't accelerating most efficiently.
Narrow slow turns like chicanes, the 90 degrees in Singapore etc, there is probably only 1 optimal car position, and most drivers hit it, because there is nothing much else to choose. If the cars are the same (and it's a big IF) their braking points will be same, throttle points will be same. Agree that the most laptime sits in the slowest corners, but when the line to be chosen is super-restrictive, and if the car capabilities in the slow turn is same (rotation, mechanical grip, ability to kerb ride) , then there is not much the driver can bring to the table. Most of the time, the slow corner advantage or disadvantage is the car, less so the driver.
Whereas, when the corner is a 'long' one - in terms of length, nothing to do with speed - the giant heavily banked (medium speed) turn in Zandvoort OR the last two turns together (slow speed) in Monaco OR Pouhon (high speed) in Spa -> the corner distance is giant, compared to other corners on those circuits ; and thats where we would see differently skilled drivers from teh same team gaining/dropping time w.r.t each other despite their car capabilities being matched.

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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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I wanted to say this .... so I said it
'more time in the slower corners' is only because there's little aero DF in slower corners and lots in faster corners

without DF there was always more time in the fast corners
ie to turn 360 deg needs 4 times the distance to allow a doubling of speed - so the time taken doing this is double

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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That aqua minerali corner though. Not quite sure if it grazzies my ragrazzi if you get what I mean?
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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venkyhere wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 6:52 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 5:14 pm
I was talking about Jeddah as you said that Jeddah's high speed corners require skill. I disagree. Jeddah's fast corners don't require much skill because they're basically flat sweeps.
It's not the 'high-speed' that I was hinting at. It was the 'long' that I meant. Jeddah has many back to back fast sweepers all at full throttle. There is driver skill in positioning the car (the lines picked, talking about a few inches differences) that determines how efficient the braking is going to be, for the next slow/medium turn ; and how much tyre was burned over the high-speed. As an example, take 16-17 in Jeddah. It's full throttle from 17 till 22, where there is a dirty kerb between 22-23, before being back to full throttle at the exit of 23-24, which is going to determine how the giant sweeper/straight from 24 to 27 is going to be. How the car comes out of 17, how straight is the straightish line chosen through 18-19-20-21, is going to determine how much left-handedly the car is loaded approaching 22 , is going to determine the braking for 22-23, is going to influence the rotation through 22-23 and the exit at 24.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 5:14 pm
As for the rest of your post, slow corners are just as requiring of skill - perhaps more so - because that is where time can be made and lost so easily. Why? Because the car spends longer "in" the corner and messing up braking or throttle application only adds to the length of time that the car isn't accelerating most efficiently.
Narrow slow turns like chicanes, the 90 degrees in Singapore etc, there is probably only 1 optimal car position, and most drivers hit it, because there is nothing much else to choose. If the cars are the same (and it's a big IF) their braking points will be same, throttle points will be same. Agree that the most laptime sits in the slowest corners, but when the line to be chosen is super-restrictive, and if the car capabilities in the slow turn is same (rotation, mechanical grip, ability to kerb ride) , then there is not much the driver can bring to the table. Most of the time, the slow corner advantage or disadvantage is the car, less so the driver.
Whereas, when the corner is a 'long' one - in terms of length, nothing to do with speed - the giant heavily banked (medium speed) turn in Zandvoort OR the last two turns together (slow speed) in Monaco OR Pouhon (high speed) in Spa -> the corner distance is giant, compared to other corners on those circuits ; and thats where we would see differently skilled drivers from teh same team gaining/dropping time w.r.t each other despite their car capabilities being matched.

isolated flatout turns don’t require much skill, you can go to a any kart track and see for yourself. these are the easiest one to master and get consistent

trickiest parts of a track are usually not flatout and most likely have a combination of corners switching directions. but flatout corners are not really gonna make a big difference, unless your car is setup terrible to begin with.

all you need to worry about in these corners is about tyre wear and setup so the tires get worked the least while traveling them.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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Pictures?

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FW17
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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FORMULA 1 MSC CRUISES GRAN PREMIO DEL MADE IN ITALY E DELL'EMILIA-ROMAGNA 2024

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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 1:52 pm
Pictures?
2024


2022

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ringo
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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Not much skill exists relatively amongst the drivers. They all can do the same things on track given enough simulator time.
Only the really bad drivers show a skill deficit.
As things stand these days its just down to how much practice and learning nuances with setup and lines and working through that with the team. If a driver falls short they always "look into it to understand why" after each session. The sport is extremely scientific and procedural where "skill" need only be a prerequisite to enter the sport. But all 20 drivers have it.
So I do not consider any track or corner needing relative skill over another driver to make a difference. A driver may need less laps to get the optimum lap time in qualy but 1 out of 20 times all of them can acheive the same exact lap time all things being equal.
For Sure!!

Silent Storm
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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2024 tyres : C3, C4, C5
Min pressure : Front 25.5 psi | Rear 22 psi
Camber limit : Front -3.0° | Rear -1.75°

2022 tyres : C2, C3, C4
Min pressure : Front 24.5 psi | Rear 21.5 psi
Camber limit : Front -3.50° | Rear -1.75°
The cheapest sort of pride is national pride, every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.

venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 17 - 19

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ringo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 11:39 pm
Not much skill exists relatively amongst the drivers. They all can do the same things on track given enough simulator time.
Only the really bad drivers show a skill deficit.
As things stand these days its just down to how much practice and learning nuances with setup and lines and working through that with the team. If a driver falls short they always "look into it to understand why" after each session. The sport is extremely scientific and procedural where "skill" need only be a prerequisite to enter the sport. But all 20 drivers have it.
So I do not consider any track or corner needing relative skill over another driver to make a difference. A driver may need less laps to get the optimum lap time in qualy but 1 out of 20 times all of them can acheive the same exact lap time all things being equal.
Probably that's why F1 teams are idiots to chase after some drivers while not interested in others, because it's purely for sponsorship or marketing revenue. Probably that's why Ferrari were wrong to give their #1 status to Schumacher and not Barrichello/Massa etc. Probably why Mercedes were stupid to give their #1 status to Hamilton and not Bottas.
Yeah, right.