2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Maximum power to the wheels possible is when the ICE is run in 'free load mode' in this mode the ICE is at full fueling and is in supercharging mode, with waste gate/s opened and MGU-K and H are sharing battery power.

gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Nobody mentioned maximum power to the wheels. Thermal efficiency is calculated by dividing power out by power in (fuel flow) with no change in stored energy within the system.
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gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Cold Fussion wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:34 pm
FW17 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:23 pm
Wasn't the reported 50% efficiency of the current engines achieved when the compressor side was run as a supercharger with MGU-H and the turbine side running with the wastegates open?
I've always thought the above 50% figures were the ICE + MGU-H recovery.
Sorry, I have no knowledge of that claim or its validity.
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mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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FW17 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:40 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:50 am


I would think that the peak efficiency was achieved with the MGUH and MGUK working in a turbo-compound mode.

That is, the recovered energy from the MGUH directly drives the MGUK and no energy is transferred to or from the battery.

When the MGUH is driving the turbo it is taking energy from the battery. Therefore using more energy than can be extracted from the fuel.
That is a good mode, but that is not the maximum power to the wheels.

Assuming 1000hp in total in qualifying
160 hp comes from MGUK
840 hp comes from ICE with battery powering the MGUH to drive the compressor and turbines running with waste gates open
840 hp is 620 kw which is 50% of available energy from 100 kg of fuel
Okay, but the discussion was about efficiency.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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FW17 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:40 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:50 am


I would think that the peak efficiency was achieved with the MGUH and MGUK working in a turbo-compound mode.

That is, the recovered energy from the MGUH directly drives the MGUK and no energy is transferred to or from the battery.

When the MGUH is driving the turbo it is taking energy from the battery. Therefore using more energy than can be extracted from the fuel.
That is a good mode, but that is not the maximum power to the wheels.

Assuming 1000hp in total in qualifying
160 hp comes from MGUK
840 hp comes from ICE with battery powering the MGUH to drive the compressor and turbines running with waste gates open
840 hp is 620 kw which is 50% of available energy from 100 kg of fuel
Fuel power is 1,250kW at 100kg/h, assuming 45MJ/kg fuel.

840hp is 626kW. Which gives 50.1% thermal efficiency.

If we say the ICE gives 600kW (804hp) and that the MGUH can recover 40kW and send it to the MGUK then the total ICE output is 640kW, which is an efficiency of 51.2%.

If the MGUH recovers 60kW, the efficiency jumps to 52.8%.

The total power of the PU is less because the MGUK output is limited. In both turbo compounding modes the total power available is the ICE power (600kW) plus the maximum MGUK output (120kW), which is 720kW.

1,000hp is ~750kW.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Running with wastegates closed is considered to be the most efficient solution for normal racing conditions. however, in qualifying conditions and during a race were defending and or overtaking are encountered, running the engine with wastegate open the power of the ICE is vastly boosted.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Without the MGUH spooling the turbo in maximum power mode, it would appear that the 2026 PUs should have the same performance in the race as they do qualifying.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:21 am
Without the MGUH spooling the turbo in maximum power mode, it would appear that the 2026 PUs should have the same performance in the race as they do qualifying.
Obvious when the rules have eliminated the 'ICE free-load-mode'.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:29 am
wuzak wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:21 am
Without the MGUH spooling the turbo in maximum power mode, it would appear that the 2026 PUs should have the same performance in the race as they do qualifying.
Obvious when the rules have eliminated the 'ICE free-load-mode'.
They will be able to use more energy on qualifying laps as they don't have to balance usage with recovery.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:54 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:29 am
wuzak wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:21 am
Without the MGUH spooling the turbo in maximum power mode, it would appear that the 2026 PUs should have the same performance in the race as they do qualifying.
Obvious when the rules have eliminated the 'ICE free-load-mode'.
They will be able to use more energy on qualifying laps as they don't have to balance usage with recovery.
Battery power, yes they will, the same as they do now, in qualifying mode over a lap battery power and fuel burn is no problem.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Under the latest version of the regulations posted by the FIA there will be 8 forward gears.

I had expected them to reduce the number of gears, perhaps to 6.

Fewer gears would save some weight, but would also means that the engines would have to run to higher rpm in order to stay in the peak power range.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:28 am
Under the latest version of the regulations posted by the FIA there will be 8 forward gears.
I had expected them to reduce the number of gears, perhaps to 6.
Fewer gears would save some weight, but would also means that the engines would have to run to higher rpm in order to stay in the peak power range.
8 speeds is even more helpful to the electric side than 6 speeds would be