Diesel in F1?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Confused_Andy
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Diesel in F1?

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Lets have a chat...

With modern Diesel engines rapidly catching up with petrol do you think the FIA would consider Diesel to be allowed the next time the engines regulations are up for renewal.

Think about it, you could have a Diesel with Turbo limited to 750bhp and 18000rpm up against a Petrol N/A 750 18000rpm, surely its something the FIA wouldnt dismiss at the drop of a hat since they dominate Le Mans...

Super racing
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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18K rpm diesel?

CMSMJ1
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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Diesels should be used in trucks and trains...not in racing cars!

They cannot rev to 18k, they sound rubbish and are heavy...
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

xavier111
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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I think that Diesel Engines in F1 will be great.... but this engines has technical difficulties to achieve 18000 rpm, for example the velocity of combustion in Diesel Engines is low in comparison with Petrol Engines!!! that is a really problem for reach 18k !!!
"Racing is life, anything that happens before or after is just waiting" Steve McQueen

"Racing, competing, it's in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I have been doing it all my life and it stands out above everything else"
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wesley123
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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i would like to see it, it will atract manufacturers(for example audi) and adds technical freedom, limit the cars to 700hp for Diesels and 750 for Petrol engines and further see how they manage it. Remember that Diesels have much more torque, thus have a gain when the hp is limited(why you think i took off 50hp for the diesels) A drawback is that they need heavier cylinderheads due to the higher pressure, wich also raises the Cg of the car, therefore you have to make it a Boxer engine, wich has packaging drawbacks. Not to add that such technology costs alot of money and manpower to achieve.

Last drawnback only already shows why not to use a diesel, now, you make more use of the mechanical grip, lower Cg means more mechanical grip, so why using a heavy Diesel engine with a high Cg? would only slow the car down, you cant play with ballast anymore as the Diesel engine is so heavy, probably makes the car overweight.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Confused_Andy
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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Sorry brain wasnt on tight, forgot diesels had lower compression.

I read somewhere though that diesel blocks can now be made outta aluminium so surely the weight isnt that much more anymore or were they always alu?

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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I don't want to intrude, but the fastest revving diesel I've heard of is the Renault DOHC Diesel at 6.500 rpm. There were rumours about the Audi R10 engine achieving 8.000 rpm, but it works in the 3.000 to 5.000 rpm range.

Diesel engines have more torque because they weigh more and the piston undergoes faster acceleration, Andy. You don't need such high revs: the idea of Rudolf Diesel was that an engine with higher compression would be more efficient. You pack more air into the combustion chamber, you use a fuel with higher energy content, so you get much better torque.

The R10 is an example: even when made of light materials and including a design with clever cross-struts (or whatever is the english name: struts are reinforcements you put in the crankcase and block to withstand the extra-force of Diesel power stroke), the weight per piston of the Diesel engine of this Audi was the same as the one of a gasoline powered one. So, in the end, after much effort, Audi engineers arrived to a design similar to the gasoline one they had before, altough "top-heavy".

Audi TDI engine: some day this will be an example of how we tried to squeeze every drop of oil in the first decades of XXIth century. It's a magnificent engine and include the turbochargers Andy wants to see
Image

That is quite an achievement in an endurance race because a Diesel engine is more "stable" than a gasoline powered one: you pay your price in designing for high stresses, but the engine you get works at a slower pace.

Actually, you pack so much "punch" in every power stroke that you can allow yourself to run it very slowly, thus the wearing is smaller. Think that Diesel engines put 3 times more air into the chamber than Otto engines (1:24 compression ratio, tops for a Diesel, vs 1:8 compression ratio, lower end of gasoline powered ones).

The real good thing about Diesel engines is that they are the most efficient design of any internal or external combustion engine. You compress only air, and by compressing it you make air so hot that almost all the fuel you inject burns. So, a diesel engine is a lean engine, which means it uses less fuel. The theoretical top thermal efficiency of a diesel is a whooping 75%.

On the other hand, an Otto engine is limited by the atmospheric pressure: how much air can you get into the engine? It depends on its suction ability, if you get my drift, as the cool equations show.

The equation for thermal efficiency of an Otto engine. It depends on the adiabatic constant of air and the compression ratio
Image

So, as you can (almost) see in the equation, the larger the compression, the larger the efficiency, isn't it? So, you want as much compression as possible.

The problem all Otto, gasoline powered, engines have is the problem of detonation. If you compress the mixture of gasoline and air too much, it detonates, instead of burning. That is, the explosion moves faster than sound. That shakes the engine and the loads damage it.

If you use regular gas instead of extra, and if you live in a city by the sea (high pressure) and if you don't have a modern car that checks the mixture, you hear a rattling noise from the engine when you accelerate: that's the gas detonating inside the cylinders; same thing happens if the spark timing is wrong.

A bullet moving faster than sound shows clearly (at least to me! ;)) the difference between detonation, explosion and deflagration: the bubble is the border of the explosion (at the speed of sound). The bullet is at the tip of the cone, to the left, moving faster than sound, the surface of the cone marks the border of the detonation wave. You can see the deflagration cloud, with a "square" shape inside the bubble (made of gases burning in a frontwave). A Diesel engine deflagrates by design
Image

A Diesel engine works in a different way: you inject only air and compress it a lot, thus packing a lot of oxygen into the combustion chamber. Then you allow it to deflagrate in a slow manner. No explosions, no detonations: you're limited by the strength of materials.

The problem is the narrow power band Diesels can work at. Why?

Under heavy loads the bearings doesn't last if you make the engine turn fast. The life of a bearing depend exponentially on the rpms it withstands and the load it has. Diesel imposes heavy loads on moving parts. For example, I can attest that a big block 502 engine can run all your life at 2,800 rpm, but run it at 3,800 rpm and you can kiss it goodbye in 500 hours. So, you need a really good gearbox, because the engine doesn't rev up too much.

I think that any engine has virtues and deffects, like relatives and girlfriends (you love them anyway). If you use a Diesel engine you are putting up with different problems than the ones of your adversaries, so research is squarely on your shoulders. I think that for Diesels to be used in Formula One, you need a political statement of one of the teams, like Volkswagen and Audi did in other series. In simple english, it means you need a wad of cash.

I will be very disappointed if, after such long explanation, Andy cannot say with confidence that diesel engines have a higher compression ratio. Right, Andy? 8)
Ciro

xavier111
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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Ciro: Renaul DOCH Diesel reaches 6500 rpm and Audi R10 engine reaches 8000 rpm???, how it achieve ??. thanks !!

Muy buena la explicación anterior !!!
"Racing is life, anything that happens before or after is just waiting" Steve McQueen

"Racing, competing, it's in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I have been doing it all my life and it stands out above everything else"
Ayrton Senna

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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No, no. There were rumours about the engine reaching 8,000 rpm. In real life it works at 5,000 rpm, tops. You achieve it by working hard, studying a lot, eating your vegetables and working for rich people... I think.

Other people says they get that kind of rpm numbers by a better design of the deflagration frontwave and its interaction with the combustion chamber and the valves, but they are idiots that write for sport magazines.

Do not believe them, they're nerds who have never raced with real men, unlike us, the people of this forum.
Ciro

wesley123
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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Now you mention the R10 powerplant you have a great example. I read at Mulsannescorner that the R10 engine is within thw 200kg region, wich is actually twice the weight of a normal aspirated engine, the weight is placed higher in the engine due to the heavy cylinder heads wich has to cope with alot more pressure, these things called can already be seen as drawbacks whuy not to use a Diesel engine. The Minimum carweight for formula1 cars is 620kg next year, so you need to make the rest weight 420kg to hit the minimum weight, this is simply impossible i think, im sure teams dont run 90kg of ballast this year.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

riff_raff
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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Confused_Andy,

A DI (compression-ignited) diesel engine could operate at 18,000 rpm in theory, but in reality it's not possible due to several factors. Most importantly, the compression ignited combustion process, while very efficient, is also very sluggish. Even small bore diesel racing engines do not operate efficiently above about 5,000 rpm. The engine is physically capable of revving higher, but it will make less power at higher revs, since the rapid piston motion will cut short the combustion process before it is complete. The un-combusted fuel simply goes out the exhaust pipe as black smoke, and doesn't contribute to power output.

Another limiting factor with DI diesels is the time available for the fuel injection event. Even a 5,000 rpm diesel must complete it's fuel injection cycle within a few tenths of a millisecond (normally about 20 degrees of crank rotation max). A diesel racing engine operating at 3 or 4 times the speed (18,000 rpm vs. 5,000 rpm) of a normal diesel engine would not have a fuel injector capable of injecting an adequate fuel mass within the time available.

Diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines primarily due to the higher peak cycle pressures possible with the diesel (constant pressure) combustion cycle. The only limit to the max output possible with diesels is due to the mechanical and heat loads the engine is capable of sustaining. On the other hand, gasoline engines are limited by their resistance to combustion detonation or knock.

Regards,
Terry
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A: Start with a large one!"

mx_tifoso
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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Your posts are pretty much perfect Terry. Kudos.
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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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Confused_Andy wrote:Sorry brain wasnt on tight, forgot diesels had lower compression.

I read somewhere though that diesel blocks can now be made outta aluminium so surely the weight isnt that much more anymore or were they always alu?
Diesels actually have higher compression, and even if made in AL, they are still heavier than a similarly sized gas engine.

F1_eng
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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Ciro Pabón, have never read so much rubbish.

Wrong on so many levels

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flynfrog
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Re: Diesel in F1?

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riff_raff wrote:Confused_Andy,

A DI (compression-ignited) diesel engine could operate at 18,000 rpm in theory, but in reality it's not possible due to several factors. Most importantly, the compression ignited combustion process, while very efficient, is also very sluggish. Even small bore diesel racing engines do not operate efficiently above about 5,000 rpm. The engine is physically capable of revving higher, but it will make less power at higher revs, since the rapid piston motion will cut short the combustion process before it is complete. The un-combusted fuel simply goes out the exhaust pipe as black smoke, and doesn't contribute to power output.

Another limiting factor with DI diesels is the time available for the fuel injection event. Even a 5,000 rpm diesel must complete it's fuel injection cycle within a few tenths of a millisecond (normally about 20 degrees of crank rotation max). A diesel racing engine operating at 3 or 4 times the speed (18,000 rpm vs. 5,000 rpm) of a normal diesel engine would not have a fuel injector capable of injecting an adequate fuel mass within the time available.

Diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines primarily due to the higher peak cycle pressures possible with the diesel (constant pressure) combustion cycle. The only limit to the max output possible with diesels is due to the mechanical and heat loads the engine is capable of sustaining. On the other hand, gasoline engines are limited by their resistance to combustion detonation or knock.

Regards,
Terry
I have one that operates at 45,000 rpm

I think what you mean are petro DI engines. IF you were to make the stroke really short and fire it off of nitro methane methanol bled you could pretty much rev it to the moon.