BAR006 Front differential

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jenkF1
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BAR006 Front differential

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Hi All,

Been looking for information on a form of front 'differential' used on the BAR006 back at the 2006 German Grand Prix. It was soon banned and I don't think it was run in a grand prix.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n12900463/

Anybody got any info on this? :?:

This must have meant the front wheels were joined together by some form of axel split by a differential onboard. I don't really understand what it does, since no torque or drive is going through the front wheels. Possibly manupulating the different speeds of the front wheels could improve handling and braking performance?
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ESPImperium
ESPImperium
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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Ah, the old torque transfer device.

Where the inside wheel was used to make shure the outside wheel was spinning at the correct rate meaning that wheel spin was eliminated meaning better front end grip.

Something to that effect. bar555 will have more on this i think.

Jersey Tom
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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jenkF1 wrote:This must have meant the front wheels were joined together by some form of axel split by a differential onboard. I don't really understand what it does, since no torque or drive is going through the front wheels.
No torque at the front wheels? You sure bout that?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Fil
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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ESPImperium wrote:Where the inside wheel was used to make shure the outside wheel was spinning at the correct rate meaning that wheel spin was eliminated meaning better front end grip.
wouldn't it be the opposite?
by transferring torque from the weight-bearing outside wheel, you can help prevent the unloaded inside wheel from locking under breaking.

that was always my personal logic on its workings.. :?
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Michiba
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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Fil wrote:
ESPImperium wrote:Where the inside wheel was used to make shure the outside wheel was spinning at the correct rate meaning that wheel spin was eliminated meaning better front end grip.
wouldn't it be the opposite?
by transferring torque from the weight-bearing outside wheel, you can help prevent the unloaded inside wheel from locking under breaking.

that was always my personal logic on its workings.. :?
I think most of the braking would have been done before the wheels have turned, plus I'm sure they would have traction control to limit the wheel lock then.

Michiba
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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ESPImperium wrote:Ah, the old torque transfer device.

Where the inside wheel was used to make shure the outside wheel was spinning at the correct rate meaning that wheel spin was eliminated meaning better front end grip.

Something to that effect. bar555 will have more on this i think.
I'd imagine this is closer to what it was used for, where torque is transferred from the inside wheel to the outside wheel, ie, inside wheel will spin slower than outside wheel.

alexbarwell
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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I think this lies dead-centre between your views - I understood the front LSD did for rotational inertia and torque what an anti-roll bar does for suspension travel - the effort loaded onto the outside wheel is shared to some degree with the inside wheel: in suspension, rather than one side diving, some spring load is shared to the other side keeping things more even. in rotation, rather than locking up the unloaded wheel that gets a feed of torque from the other side, the loaded side stands to get a partial addition to available braking effort.
I am an engineer, not a conceptualist :)

xpensive
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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During Nick Wirth's time as design manager for Benetton in the late 90's, a similar device was tried, I didn't understand it then either.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Jersey Tom
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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Not knowing any better I'd assume it was an inboard brake applied to a limited slip differential which then went out to the wheels, to mitigate inside front lockup and allow deeper trailbraking.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Ian P.
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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Personal motto... "Were it not for the bad.... I would have no luck at all."

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jenkF1
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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Hi what I meant by no torque was no driving force to the front wheels. However, they obviously have the force of motion in them and I can see under braking this would act almost the same as a 'driving' force.

So basically it helps with braking stability and trailbraking.

Thanks for the link Ian P
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Ian P.
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2004/725/53.html

Just a bit more. Germany 2004.
Of note is the attempt to utilize electronics for control.... nixed by the FIA, naturally.
This is a really interesting concept. Locking the frontwheels together under braking should be a great way to stabilize the car on turn in but you would need to free up the two wheels on exit to reduce oversteer.
Ackerman may have a fix but he is part of the problem too. More angles to consider.
Personal motto... "Were it not for the bad.... I would have no luck at all."

Jersey Tom
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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Ian P. wrote:http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2004/725/53.html

Just a bit more. Germany 2004.
Of note is the attempt to utilize electronics for control.... nixed by the FIA, naturally.
This is a really interesting concept. Locking the frontwheels together under braking should be a great way to stabilize the car on turn in but you would need to free up the two wheels on exit to reduce oversteer.
Ackerman may have a fix but he is part of the problem too. More angles to consider.
Seems un-necessary given that you can do exactly the same with the ramps on a Salisbury rear diff, without having to add the front contraption.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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I'm desperately trying to sort this out intellecually. Without ABS, you wish to find a way not to lock one of the fronts, when dynamic friction (slip) is consideraby less than static (rolling), am I getting anywhere here?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Jersey Tom
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Re: BAR006 Front differential

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Don't try to think of tires in terms of static and dynamic friction. Under applied torque there's also some non-zero amount of slip (ratio).

But yea, you want to prevent lockup since peak braking potential is before that point. Tires will tend to make more grip when they're under slip than when they're totally sliding.

With equal brakes left and right, you inevitably lock up the inside before the outside due to load difference. Inside can't sustain as much torque.

Idea of that viscous coupling on the front is..
  1. Allow a small difference in LF and RF wheel speed without any "lock" so you don't have un-necessary understeer during normal cornering, when the difference in wheel speeds are close
  2. After you exceed a certain limit (the "deadband" they mention), like when the inside is about to lock up and is turning at say half the RPM's that the outside tire is, the fluid coupling starts to lock and transfer torque to the outside wheel, which has more grip capacity
Let's you trailbrake deeper into the corner, for overtaking advantage and a faster lap.

Though admittedly the difference such a thing would make would be pretty small.

It will also lead to some corner entry understeer, but that can be tweaked. The concept is to give you more braking potential while cornering, not really to stabilize the car. As I mentioned earlier, if you wanted to do that, all you'd have to do is give the rear diff more lock with engine braking. Doable with a plate-and-ramp rear diff.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.