Diesel in F1?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: Diesel in F1?

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We may need tissues for one reason for another in this thread soon :lol:
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

F1_eng
F1_eng
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Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 11:38

Re: Diesel in F1?

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I have been an engineer for quite a few, very reputable engine companies. A large portion on my work has been on Formula 1 engine development. Simulation and valve-train dynamics is my specialised area but most of the work is different to this. Simulation is such an interesting field since you need to be crystal clear about the workings of a system before you can even attempt to model its behaviour mathematically. It ranges from combustion, kinematics, thermo through to CFD.

I now work for a Formula 1 company as an engineer, I am not going to say which department or team as it is too small a world.


Hope this has answered your question Jersey Tom

Regards.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Diesel in F1?

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Was just curious. It is indeed a small world.

Agree on the simulation bit. When your code DEFINES the reality you're trying to figure out.. makes a big difference on being crystal clear.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Diesel in F1?

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F1_eng,

I'm impressed. If you're truly doing accurate modelling of combustion, kinematics, heat transfer, and fluid flow, that means you're up to snuff with several different, and very sophisticated software applications. That's no small feat.

Combustion effects are usually modelled with something like KIVA or CHEMKIN. Valvetrain and crank kinematics can be done nicely with various ADAMS or Ricardo modules. Heat transfer is easily simulated with common FEA codes like NASTRAN, ANSYS or ABAQUS. And there are now many very capable CFD codes such as FLUENT or STAR-CD. Plus, a good analytical model must always be based on a good digital geometric model produced in a decent CAD software like CATIA V5, UG, etc.

Being competent with just one or two of these engineering applications is difficult. But having fluency in several of them is truly impressive.

I'm an ME doing gearbox design for aircraft drivetrains. The 12,000 hp transmission I'm currently working on has taken me 2 years of design and modelling work so far, and will likely take another 2 or 3 years to get through qualification. The analyst I have working with me (doing FEA for things like stress, heat transfer and vibration) has over 30 years experience with NASTRAN, and in fact was once an employee with MSC Software involved with developing the NASTRAN/PATRAN codes. It has taken him almost a full year, working full time, to build a complete linear FEM of my transmission.

F1_eng, you are working with an F1 team, so your design cycles are weeks, not years. So how do you get that work done? 100 hour work weeks?

I'd love to hear back from you.
Best regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
8
Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

Re: Diesel in F1?

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The thread seems to be settling into the kind of thread it should be now.... a technical discussion and not a sniping match. So, having stayed out for a while I thought I'd dip a toe in the water!

I'm not an engine expert, or a modeliing expert, some would say not much of an expert in anything, but there was some discussion around the 'energy density' of fuels.

I always hate to generalise about technical matters, but it is sometimes necessary. Gasoline is a complex chemical mixture, but has a carbon number range typically between C4-C12, Automotive diesel is typically C11-C25; The respective fuel densities are 0.72-0.79g/ml and 0.82-0.86g/ml.

Taking a mean carbon number gasoline would be C8 (no surprises there, it's octane!!) and for automotive diesel C18; so C10 differnece between the two - therefore mole for mole diesel has more or less double the carbon number than gasoline.

One of the main issues in CI engines is getting a good dispersion of fuel into the combustion chamber - this is typically done by increasing the pressure of injection so that the injection creates a finer dispersion, thereby reducing the time taken for volatalisation and combustion of the fuel and minmising the black smoke formation which is essentially unburned carbon. This limits the rev range, also the longer piston distances required as a result of the higher compression ratio is a limiting factor.

Audi and Peugeot's experiences in Le Mans shows it can be done and successfully (notwithstanding the rule changes that made it work), but those clever engineering types would be more than capable of designing a relatively light and powerful diesel racing engine if the rules permitted it.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents into the ring... for now
Mike

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Diesel in F1?

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Mikey_s,

The energy content of a liquid fuel is usually based on its caloric Lower Heating Value (LHV). And in this regard, gasoline has a higher LHV than diesel. But diesel also has a greater specific gravity than gasoline.

The confusion arises when the exact chemical definition of a particular fuel is defined. The term gasoline covers a very wide range of hydrocarbon compounds, usually having between 4 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule. Diesel fuel specifications usually describe hydrocarbons having between 8 and 21 carbon atoms per molecule.

Carbon-carbon molecular bonds are very strong, and therefore very energetic when broken during combustion. So the greater number of C-C bonds in a diesel fuel molecular chain tends to produce a greater heat release than gasoline during combustion. But the actual difference is not all that great in reality.

Diesel combustion tends to produce more energy than gasoline combustion on a volumetric basis (138,700 BTU/gal vs. 125,000 BTU/gal), so that's why most consider diesel fuel to have a greater energy density than gasoline.

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

F1_eng
F1_eng
4
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 11:38

Re: Diesel in F1?

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riff_raff,

You are right about the fact it can be very difficult to become an expert in the engineering fields stated. The common link in a lot of these fields is the methods used, such as FEA or FV. Understanding these from base level as well as numerical grid generation gives you a great base to progress to a load of other fields. The generation of meshes and understanding their function is also very important.
The dynamics behind a lot of analysis is not that complex, such as stress analysis. What could become a problem is if you think you understand a system but don't. Fluent is very good but when it comes to specific problems, most of the code has to be changed to be of any use.

I have used MSc Adams but it takes a long time to set-up a system, I usually model a system myself, I then know the exact ins and out of the modeling if there was an issue with it.

In regards to time scales, I can't give you an exact answer since things just seem to "come out in the wash" as I like to say. I work a lot in the night, it can be a little awkward accessing the super-computer from home though. Oh, and yes, both CAD software you mentioned is what I have always used, currently only using CATIA.

In regards to the fuel energy content, for engne discussions usually the fuel energy is expressed in MJ/kg, because the air/fuel ratios are in ratios of mass. You also mention dispertion of diesel fuel, this doesn't really have much bearing on the limiting rev range. I worked on a diesel engine project for a truck company, we had up to 13 injections per combustion cycle, for sure the speeds are lower. We were trying to inject a small ammount of fuel very early to begin the combustion process and condition the cylinder, then feed in the remaining fuel as combustion required.

Krispy
Krispy
0
Joined: 25 Jun 2008, 15:40
Location: Auburn, AL

Re: Diesel in F1?

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Just subscribing to the thread.

You guys make my day at work much more interesting. I have CATIA V5 on my desktop...do I dare try it?

(Coming from a Solid Edge/Autocad background)
"In order to finish first, you must first finish"-Stirling Moss

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Diesel in F1?

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F1_eng,

Thanks for the reply.

As for your comment, "....because the air/fuel ratios are in ratios of mass", more specifically, A/F ratio thermochemistry is defined in terms of moles.

With regards to your comment, "You also mention dispertion of diesel fuel, this doesn't really have much bearing on the limiting rev range....", I would also again disagree somewhat. The max efficient operating frequency (RPM) of a CI diesel engine is directly a function of the combustion process's heat release rate. The combustion heat release rate of a direct injection CI diesel engine is significantly affected by the droplet mean size and distribution (Sauter mean diameter) produced by the injection nozzle geometry. Thus a finer, more dispersed injection spray will produce less ignition delay, and have a faster heat release rate, than a coarser, more concentrated spray pattern. That is why modern common rail, DI injection systems use very high injection pressures through nozzles with the largest number of holes possible at the smallest diameter possible.

I agree with your statement about multiple injection events per cycle being beneficial. Although I've never heard of 13 injection events per cycle being used, I do know that modern direct-actuating piezoelectric injectors can achieve up to 5 discreet injection events per cycle in production automotive diesels. The first 2 or 3 injections are usually "pre-injections", that help reduce ignition delay in the main injections, and thus also help reduce the peak cycle pressures and combustion noise associated.

Look forward to chatting with you some more.
Best regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

F1_eng
F1_eng
4
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 11:38

Re: Diesel in F1?

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riff_raff, my point being regarding the air/fuel ratios is that discussing energy release from covalent carbon bonds, the poster was saying that a mole of diesel has 10 more C-C bonds that a mole of gasoline. But injection cycles and A/F mixtures in an automotive engine are not often discussed in terms of moles. Generally because the number atoms in a mole of diesel is significantly higher than gasoline, the injected number of moles would be lower for a diesel in order to conserve the A/F by mass ratio.

I wasn't saying that dispertion of fuel doesn't have any bearing on limiting rev range, I said that it doesn't have much bearing since modern injectors can more than deal with the injection requirements. The higher number of injections increases the heat release rate.

Sorry I have to go now, I might post some more later.

Regards

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
8
Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

Re: Diesel in F1?

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I think a lot depends on the level of detail necessary as to which factors one considers as important...
I'm not an engineer, but a chemist, so my principal interest is in the chemistry and kinetics of the combustion process.

Chemistry happens in moles, liquid fuels are dispensed in litres and engines (I believe!!) work on mass/volumetrics... so probably we are iterating towards violent agreement!

My comments concerning dipersion relate to the low volatility of diesel compared to gasoline and I think riff_raff hit the nail on the head (and I alluded) to the importance of dispersion in the combustion process for diesel engines. In modern automotive diesel engines the fuel is injected at immense pressure in order to generate a fine dispersion giving the maximum surface area:volume ratio in an effort to make the combustion as rapid as possible - the black smoke produced at high engine speeds is a consequence of insufficient time for the fuel droplets to burn completely and leaving a 'carbon' core. The higher molecular weight of diesel means that, even at the high temperatures in the cylinder, the droplet does not have time to 'evaporate' before it starts to ignite - hence the drive towards smaller droplets and higher injection pressures. If the fuel had enough time to fully vaporise sooting would be less likely to occur as access of the molecules to sufficient oxygen in the cylinder would be less of an issue.

Coming back to the discussion concerning calorific value/mole;
Perhaps one of you can answer whether fuel injectors dispense in mass or volume; my sense is that it is probably volume, which then requires a knowledge of the mass (and thus molar ratio) of fuel to air available for the combustion process in order to know why diesel engines are more efficient. There can be no doubt that mole for mole diesel has more available energy than gasoline (more than double!). However, if you start to make soot rather than CO2 that energy is not being used efficiently.

Then there is the discussion about 'what is diesel?' - which very much depends upon where you live... up in Scandinavia it tends to be kerosine, down in southern Europe it is gas oil based... and racing diesel could contain substantial quantities of 'synthetic' molecules; Cue a whole new discussion about dispersion quality dependent upon molecular weight...
Mike

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Diesel in F1?

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Mikey_s and F1_eng,

Sounds like we all agree about the basics of diesel combustion, and a detailed discussion on the kinetics behind the process is a little too esoteric for this forum.

Mikey_s gives a good explanation (for a chemist!) on the importance of the injection spray in a high speed DI diesel. The fuel droplets will only support combustion where there is adequate oxygen, therefore combustion only takes place at each fuel droplet's surface. If you can picture it, diesel combustion is basically millions of microscopic little fuel droplets with flaming surfaces, shooting through the combustion chamber space. Lots of very small droplets will combust faster than a fewer number of much larger droplets. So a very fine, well dispersed injection spray is critical for fast, efficient combustion.

The biggest reason a diesel engine tends to be more efficient is mostly due to the higher cycle pressures involved, it's basic thermodynamics. Another reason is that a diesel engine always runs unthrottled, while a gasoline engine doesn't. So the gasoline engine has higher pumping losses at part load operation.

Of course, a diesel engine typically operates at something close to constant pressure conditions. While a gasoline engine operates at closer to constant volume conditions. In theory, a constant volume cycle should be more efficient than a constant pressure cycle. So go figure?

Mikey_s, to answer your specific question about how diesel injectors meter fuel, it's typically discussed in terms of volume (cubic mm per injection). But since a diesel has no fixed A/F ratio, fuel is metered in response to load. As opposed to a gasoline engine that requires a narrow stoichiometric A/F ratio, where fuel is metered in response to intake air mass flow.

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
44
Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: Diesel in F1?

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riff_raff wrote:Stuff
Bloody good post that.

Thats also the reason why technology is now trying to force petrol engines to be more like diesels in operation. With high pressure direct injections, HCCI, stratified charge etc.



Also someone mentinoed that diesel injections were at 200bar, I thought common rail systems ran at 2000 bar?

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Diesel in F1?

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xxChrisxx,

You are right. A modern, high-performance, common rail or unit type diesel injector can easily achieve 2000 bar injection pressures.

But 2000 bar injection pressures, while mostly desirable, also present all kinds of problems such as accurate metering and over-penetration of the injection spray.

The accurate fuel metering issue has mostly been solved with the development of super high-frequency, direct acting piezoelectric injectors. The spray over-penetration issue is more difficult. Reducing the penetration of a high-pressure nozzle spray can be achieved by reducing the injector orifice diameter. But since a diesel fuel injector nozzle orifice requires very accurate and consistent geometry, the only way to produce them is by drilling. Current small diameter drilling technology limits these orifice hole sizes to about 0.2mm or larger in production. So this is the current practical limit for injector nozzles.

As for gasoline engines becoming more like diesels (as well as diesels becoming more like gasoline engines), this is true. All of the automotive OEM's have active HCCI cycle engine development programs. HCCI combustion is most accurately described as a true "constant volume" combustion cycle, which is closer to a typical gasoline engine's combustion than a diesels. The drawback of HCCI is that it is very noisy, difficult to control, and not suitable for high load operation. So we will not likely see it in production any time soon.

Best regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

Edis
Edis
59
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 16:58

Re: Diesel in F1?

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In theory, the diesel engine is actually less efficient than a gasoline engine due to the thermodynamic cycle by which it operate. But in practice a diesel engine is more efficient than a gasoline engine, the main reason is the use of a higher compression ratio, and at part load, the lack of throttling. In practice the thermal cycle of the diesel also look very much like the cycle of the gasoline engine, more toward heat release at constant volume than at constant pressure.

The modern diesel engine is direct injected and the combustion occur in two stages. When the fuel injection starts before TDC a small part of the fuel will vaporise due to the compression heat, and the longer the ignition delay is, the more fuel will have had time to vaporise. This fuel will mix with the air inside the cylinder and will burn rapidly when ignited. This is the premixed burning in a diesel engine and since the heat release rate (J/deg) is very high it will result in a pressure spike and the knocking engine sound of a diesel engine. When the load, but also engine speed is increased the ignition delay will become shorter and the pressure spike will disappear.
The second phase of diesel engine combustion occur with a diffusion flame. Unlike a direct injected gasoline engine the fuel injection isn't completed before the combustion starts, no, the injection continue during the burn. The injector nozzle inject liquid fuel, a small diesel usually have around 5 sprays per injector, which vaporise and oxidize when it comes into contact with air. If you haven't seen this on an in cylinder video, it looks like having 5 very small flame throwers in the cylinder. Inside the plume the mixture is rich, which cause the formation of soot, and at the outside the mixture is lean, causing the formation of nitrous oxides. This is shown in the picture below.

http://www.scielo.br/img/revistas/jbsms ... 5398f1.jpg

In a gasoline engine the combustion speed is dependant on the engine speed. Higher engine speed means more turbulence, which means a higher combustion speed. In the gasoline engine, the result is that the combustion can be done at about the same duration in crankshaft degrees independent on engine speed (only the ignition delay increase with speed). This is not the case with the diesel, where the duration of the combustion becomes longer and longer when the engine speed increases. The result is that the maximum cylinder pressure, pmax, occur later and later in the power stroke. With a gasoline engine you want pmax to occur at around 17 degrees after top dead center, and the ignition advance is set to achieve that if possible. If the ignition is retarded we get less torque, a lower efficiency and a higher exhaust temperature. The same thing will happen if we run a gasoline engine lean as that would result in a slower burn. This is also what is happening to the diesel at high engine speeds. So, the engine speed is kept down with diesels.

Diesel engines always operate with lean fuel mixtures, and the load is also controlled by adjusting the amount of fuel injected as opposed to air as with the gasoline engine. The diesel also have a smoke limit somewhere around lambda 1.3, use richer fuel mixtures than that and the engine will start to produce visible smoke while the exhaust temperature increase.
High injection pressures, as high as 2400 bar, are mainly used to prevent soot, important in itself but also important if an EGR system should be possible to use. Supercritical fuel injection is studied as a possible next step.

It is often said that diesels produce more torque than gasoline engines. They don't. Compare a diesel engine on equal grounds, that is, equal displacement and boost pressure, and they will produce about the same amount of torque. The diesel will however in such a comparison produce much less power. The reason diesels often produce more torque than a gasoline engine is either due to a greater displacement or a higher boost pressure. Since a diesel can't knock it can use very high boost pressures to compensate for what it lacks in engine speed. But high boost pressures combined with a high compression ratio also result in very high peak cylinder pressures. A naturally aspiranted engine producing 100 hp/l such as several BMW engine, see peak pressures in the order of 90 bar, a F1 engine 110 bar or so and a downsized turbo engine such as the VW TSI 120 bar. A diesel with 100 hp/l operate with peak pressures in the order or 190 bar, roughly twice that of the gasoline engine with similar specific output. For a production engine that translates into a roughly 20% weight handicap since the engine must be reinforced to handle this king of pressures.

Diesel fuel contain 42.5 MJ/kg and has a specific gravity of 820-845 kg/m3. Premium gasoline contain more energy, 43.5 MJ/kg, but has a lower density of 720-745 kg/m3. Overall, this gives diesel roughly 10% more energy ona volume basis. Scandinavian diesel, or more specifically, Swedish MK1 diesel have a reduced aromatics content to make the fuel cleaner, that result in a less dense fuel at 810 kg/m3 but it also has a higher energy content of 43.2 MJ/kg.

For a diesel engine to be possible in F1 which require a compact lightweight package, it would probably be forced to operate with a low compression ratio by diesel engine standards and with a very high boost pressure. Since the engine would be forced to produce the same output as the competition, but at a much lower engine speed, it would also put high demands on the drivetrain.