Williams blocking increased brake disc sizes for 2010

[Steven]

I don't quite understand why teams should push for bigger brake discs. It has been repeated many many times over the years that one of the causes for the overtaking problems is the strength of the brakes, or rather the short braking distances.

While one could argue this from a safety point of view, I'd even suggest to (slightly) reduce the size of these discs. Surely brake discs are expensive, and smaller discs would cost less, something that the FIA will no doubt like.

And picking in on the KERS topic here, once the teams are all under budget limitations equal to one another, the FIA should allow KERS on all four wheels.

[Richard]

I know that I would screw FOTA at every single possible opportunity that I could. And when Monty got red in the face, I would smile and say "--- you, asswipe."

Just the sort of contribution we need on a technical forum!

[Richard]

I don't see the problem. You cut your cloth to suit your means.

If the cars cannot take a race distance on the current 28m disc compounds then they'll have to run harder pads and discs.

Mountain out of a molehill...

If they had harder compounds then we might even see some outbraking as distances will be longer...so what is the problem??

I don't quite understand why teams should push for bigger brake discs. It has been repeated many many times over the years that one of the causes for the overtaking problems is the strength of the brakes, or rather the short braking distances.

While one could argue this from a safety point of view, I'd even suggest to (slightly) reduce the size of these discs. Surely brake discs are expensive, and smaller discs would cost less, something that the FIA will no doubt like.

Thanks for posting on topic! =D>

I agree, this sport needs more limitations like this so cars are working harder. If the rules bowl more googlies like this (such as narrow front tyres) then we'll get more variability, and that will lead to better racing.

Aren't smaller brakes safer because the drivers will start to brake earlier? Then if there was a failure it would happen earlier, hence more space, longer skids, hence safer?

[flynfrog]

I don't quite understand why teams should push for bigger brake discs. It has been repeated many many times over the years that one of the causes for the overtaking problems is the strength of the brakes, or rather the short braking distances.

While one could argue this from a safety point of view, I'd even suggest to (slightly) reduce the size of these discs. Surely brake discs are expensive, and smaller discs would cost less, something that the FIA will no doubt like.

And picking in on the KERS topic here, once the teams are all under budget limitations equal to one another, the FIA should allow KERS on all four wheels.

I really dont see thickness mattering much either way its more of a safety thing to buy a little more time before a failure. With cars running heavy next year Id want a little more thickness too. but they could work around it too more cooling ect. I dont see if affecting braking distance at all.

[Conceptual]

I know that I would screw FOTA at every single possible opportunity that I could. And when Monty got red in the face, I would smile and say "--- you, asswipe."

Just the sort of contribution we need on a technical forum!

It is very technical. Monty is the one who led the FOTA charge to destroy the budget cap with very open regs, because his team only wins due to their huge budget.

So, my comment about screwing FOTA and Monty is in direct reaction to them screwing the technical regulations for 2010.

[CMSMJ1]

I don't quite understand why teams should push for bigger brake discs. It has been repeated many many times over the years that one of the causes for the overtaking problems is the strength of the brakes, or rather the short braking distances.

While one could argue this from a safety point of view, I'd even suggest to (slightly) reduce the size of these discs. Surely brake discs are expensive, and smaller discs would cost less, something that the FIA will no doubt like.

And picking in on the KERS topic here, once the teams are all under budget limitations equal to one another, the FIA should allow KERS on all four wheels.

I really dont see thickness mattering much either way its more of a safety thing to buy a little more time before a failure. With cars running heavy next year Id want a little more thickness too. but they could work around it too more cooling ect. I dont see if affecting braking distance at all.

If they wanted the keep the same thickness then they would have to make the material harder so it lasts longer. A harder compound pad and disc would be less effective and so we would get longer brake distances. Simple as that. It is a non argument IMO. It would also slow the cars down which the FIA seems to like now and again.

Not by a lot..as we saw JB was not exactly throwing it in the wall when told to go easy on the brakes...

[flynfrog]

I know that I would screw FOTA at every single possible opportunity that I could. And when Monty got red in the face, I would smile and say "--- you, asswipe."

Just the sort of contribution we need on a technical forum!

It is very technical. Monty is the one who led the FOTA charge to destroy the budget cap with very open regs, because his team only wins due to their huge budget.

So, my comment about screwing FOTA and Monty is in direct reaction to them screwing the technical regulations for 2010.

your dream 2010 regs were never going to happen they were a bargaining chip to try to get the big teams to cave. Max had no intention of making them a reality. Can we move on now.

[flynfrog]

I don't quite understand why teams should push for bigger brake discs. It has been repeated many many times over the years that one of the causes for the overtaking problems is the strength of the brakes, or rather the short braking distances.

While one could argue this from a safety point of view, I'd even suggest to (slightly) reduce the size of these discs. Surely brake discs are expensive, and smaller discs would cost less, something that the FIA will no doubt like.

And picking in on the KERS topic here, once the teams are all under budget limitations equal to one another, the FIA should allow KERS on all four wheels.

I really dont see thickness mattering much either way its more of a safety thing to buy a little more time before a failure. With cars running heavy next year Id want a little more thickness too. but they could work around it too more cooling ect. I dont see if affecting braking distance at all.

If they wanted the keep the same thickness then they would have to make the material harder so it lasts longer. A harder compound pad and disc would be less effective and so we would get longer brake distances. Simple as that. It is a non argument IMO. It would also slow the cars down which the FIA seems to like now and again.

Not by a lot..as we saw JB was not exactly throwing it in the wall when told to go easy on the brakes...

I really dont see it mattering either way. If a slightly thicker disk will keep some one from having a failure into a wall I say go for it. It will allow the cars to race the full distance instead of the last 5 laps be a parade with all of the cars out of brakes.

[Ogami musashi]

I don't quite understand why teams should push for bigger brake discs. It has been repeated many many times over the years that one of the causes for the overtaking problems is the strength of the brakes, or rather the short braking distances.

While one could argue this from a safety point of view, I'd even suggest to (slightly) reduce the size of these discs. Surely brake discs are expensive, and smaller discs would cost less, something that the FIA will no doubt like.

And picking in on the KERS topic here, once the teams are all under budget limitations equal to one another, the FIA should allow KERS on all four wheels.

It has been repeated many many times that:

-downforce should be reduced
-diffuser should be a bigger part of the total downforce
-tyres are harder
-H-pattern gearbox levelers should come back
-engines restrictions to be suspended
-Steel brakes should be re-introduced
-wider tracks (for tracks)
-wider track (for cars)
-and so on...


Would provide overtaking...

And none of that propositions has been studied throughfuly and when it was done, the conlusion were the opposite.

We need to stop with enthusiasts F1 rules remap..

LOOK at the races overtakings in F1, the vast majority is done on braking!

It is very easy to look at non present features and say they would help overtaking just because they're not there. It is so easy to slam current features and say they are the culprit.

The bigger brake pads would just to be able to withstand the heavier cars and races with less cooling time.

[Steven]

Well Ogami I'm not hinting at going back to steel brakes, that would be a considerable step down and could potentially make Formula One cars slower than GP2 cars for example.

I'm not sure what the motivation is in the quest for larger brake discs, but I know two things relating to costs of brake discs:
- the more material, the more expensive
- the harder the carbon fibre, the more expensive

If FOTA is pushing for larger brake discs to reduce the costs by not having to buy harder carbon fibre discs, fine. So thicker discs it is

[hecti]

Williams has really been pissing me off lately with their anti fota ---.
anyways id just like to say that the pinnacle of motor sport and cost cutting really don't go together. [-X

[xpensive]

In all honesty, I think the cost for xtra material in a larger brake-disc must by next to zip in a 100 MEUR context.

The very xistance of Williams this year was dependent on MrE's good heart, probably 2010 as well, think about it.

[Terrible3]

big risk there

the rules mandate unanimous vote to change rules within 1 year... If any team says no then it aint gonna happen.

FOTA fought to keep the 2009 rules for 2010(and beyond) and now they want to change a whole bunch of ---.

And no, not all teams in FOTA voted to get rid of KERS, but FOTA is a majority decision body. So 5 teams can choose the destiny of the whole FOTA.

Fota wanted the same rules to reduce costs. The only changes fota now wants to make are logical. They had no say in the refueling ban and so now they are trying to adjust the rules to compensate for the new fuel loads. Lastly they want Kers gone due to dev costs.

The costs of KERS are not huge, it costs less than what Merc & Ferrari spent on engine upgrades while the engines were to be frozen. And KERS is optional, they dont have to spend the money if they dont want to.

Is there any logic to this statement? Why not have an open rule book and say if you don't want to spend the money to win than that's just fine. Kers is just another money pit for the teams, why not eliminate it? If you are going to banter on about how F1 should use it to be the pinnacle of technology then why not allow active suspension, active aero, four wheel drive, abs, asc, lc and tc? There has to be some limits set other wise the sport would have collapsed years ago.

Everyone else(other than the 4 RBR cars) seem to have done just fine, you act as if 1 car finished the race.

You are acting as if the cars will not weigh an extra (up to) 150kg at the start of races next year!

So then use a harder compound, cool them more, and brake earlier.

and the starting weight will be more like 100kg more than this year, not 150... track dependent of course.

Sure the problem showed up the the redbulls, but many of the other teams had similar problems. I guess you just ignored the radio transmissions to button about his brakes on the edge of giving out.

With regards to fixing the problem its clear you dont know jack about f1 brakes. The brakes did not give out due to lack of cooling or drivers braking past the optimal distance. The brakes simply ran out of material causing the disc to fail catastrophically. Increasing the brake disc size would resolve this issue completely. Lastly 150-100kg is a lot of extra weight to be carrying around the track. You have to factor in that the energy needed to slow down 150kg from 200mph more than 10 times per lap is a lot to say the least. You would have to be pretty incompetent to think that the additional weight due to the fuel is trivial.

Please stop thinking your more intelligent than Fota.

[Raptor22]

BS rules? All other FOTA teams agreed to no KERS for next year, if Ferrari and McLaren have accepted this, why can't Williams?

Regardless, if Williams is the only one against bigger brake discs they will likely be forced to cave to the pressure of all the other FOTA teams, or risk being kicked out of FOTA again.

FOTA's rule are BS. shortsighted. F1 shoul dhave adopted Mosley's rules for 2010 and beyond.

Good on Williams for sticking to their guns. KERS is the way forward.
what we do need to do is drop carbon brakes though. Bigger rims lower profile tyre and steel discs. Cost will come down too.

[axle]

Williams has really been pissing me off lately with their anti fota ---.

I honestly don't think you have a grasp of how negotiations work. Williams may be saying no to one thing as they feel that another solution is better, and who are we to say that is wrong with only one side to the argument.

Williams like the others has invested heavily in KERS and they are not going to want to just stick it on a shelf when the current rules permit it. I expec they want to prove a point. The money is spent already - they might as well use the end product. IMO KERS should stay, and the current systems that work should be available to all to buy off the peg, unless they want to make their own alternative.

As for the brakes...do we have any facts yet? Do we actually 100% know the details of what Williams are allegedly disagreeing with? I can't see any evidence still...

Black and white discussions are rare. You will never have all the facts unless you can read the minds of the men involved in the negotiations.