Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mnauno
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Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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Im doing a little bit of research on the failed Subaru/Motori Moderni engine, but I can't find any evidence proving the "boxer"-theory that many people throw around. Are there pictures of the crankshaft/crankpins? I know that the engine was used in Poweboat-racing in the US. Any help is appreciated!

Greg Locock
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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'theory'? What on earth do you mean. yes it was a flat 12. It is unlikely that it was a true boxer (7? or 12 crankpins) but I can't find any photos of the crank.

mnauno
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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Greg Locock wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 12:50 am
'theory'? What on earth do you mean. yes it was a flat 12. It is unlikely that it was a true boxer (7? or 12 crankpins) but I can't find any photos of the crank.
I know that it is a flat-12 engine, but most of the time people on the internet are saying that it is a boxer engine which would be a little different to a 180 degree V12. Thats why I was wondering if they actually tried the boxer layout, which would have more disadvantages than advantages in this case.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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mnauno wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2025 12:10 am
Im doing a little bit of research on the failed Subaru/Motori Moderni engine, but I can't find any evidence proving the "boxer"-theory that many people throw around. Are there pictures of the crankshaft/crankpins? ....
there was never such a thing ....
boxer's just the stupid German name for what the British stupidly named 'horizontally-opposed'
not different
blame Porsche fans

and why the flipping heck would anyone ever make such an engine ie with 12 crankpins ?
the nonsense started when Ferrari made the first flat-12 that actually won F1 races
so someone invented the nonsense buzzword 180 degree V
yes (if not burdened by air cooling) you always could have had a flat 8 with 4 crankpins eg Tecno F2

anyway, as a colleague said - if it hasn't got eg 2 crankshafts (or equivalent) just call it flat
he was in charge of 20000 hp (Doxford?) engines

mnauno
mnauno
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 5:35 pm
mnauno wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2025 12:10 am
Im doing a little bit of research on the failed Subaru/Motori Moderni engine, but I can't find any evidence proving the "boxer"-theory that many people throw around. Are there pictures of the crankshaft/crankpins? ....
there was never such a thing ....
boxer's just the stupid German name for what the British stupidly named 'horizontally-opposed'
not different
blame Porsche fans

and why the flipping heck would anyone ever make such an engine ie with 12 crankpins ?
the nonsense started when Ferrari made the first flat-12 that actually won F1 races
so someone invented the nonsense buzzword 180 degree V
yes (if not burdened by air cooling) you always could have had a flat 8 with 4 crankpins eg Tecno F2

anyway, as a colleague said - if it hasn't got eg 2 crankshafts (or equivalent) just call it flat
he was in charge of 20000 hp (Doxford?) engines
In my german speaking country we don't have the term "flat-engine", we would call a "flat-12" a V-12, and a "horizontally-opposed" engine a boxer engine. But as you and the colleague already said, using a crankshaft with 12 crank pins would not make any sense, maybe the amount of buzzwords and terms being thrown around the internet was just confusing me.

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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Given that Ferrari (somewhat famous for their engines, and should know better) called their flat V12 a Boxer, when it wasn't, shows how misused the terminology is. If it's got 6 crankpins it's a flat V12 if it has 12 it's a boxer, and in my whacky reinterpretation if it has two single cylinder crankpins and 5 doubles it might be a boxer.

In Ferrari's defence from wiki "Ferrari engine designer Mauro Forghieri stated "Please, don't call it boxer. Technically, it is correct to say that this engine is a flat-12, or has 12 cylinders with the heads at a vee angle of 180°"

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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It is said that the only 12 cylinders in boxer configuration (horizontally opposed pistons) F1 engine ever raced was that one developed for the Subaru F1 program. But many still doubt the feasibility of such a racing engine crankshaft. To me whom I was never been able to confirm the true Subaru crankshaft configuration, I believe that the "BOXER" tag has more to do with the Subaru engine manufacturing tradition. This engine manufacturing tradition was also but wrongly pushed-out/ used when technically the Porsche flat configuration of its racing engines, wrongly, because Porsche produced both ''BOXER-opposed pistons'' as well as flat engine configurations for their racing programs. This ''Subaru F1 12-cylinder ''BOXER" configuration curiosity question can be solved by a man from Australia who somewhere some time ago I read that he had acquired some engines and a lot of parts including unmachined Subaru ''BOXER'' engine parts/castings, parts that he said that are enough to build a couple more engines, he also mentioned acquisition of official drawings.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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The Subaru F1 12-cylinder engine question as to its crankshaft design configuration. As mentioned that I have read somewhere that somebody from Australia (a Subaru nut) claimed to have acquired spare engines and parts including un machined castings plus design drawings, This, his writing I managed to trace, it was something like five years back at that time, and the forum was ''Koenigsegg nearly having used the Subaru 12'' I have tried to make contact with him without success, His post on that Koenigsegg thread was as follows. ''@Anthonparle7342. lives in Australia and a Subaru nut. 5 years ago, my first purchase was the spare parts from the race team which was 3 engines in bits and a number of unmachined castings. we could build two complete engines and still have a lot of spares''.

mnauno
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:39 am
The Subaru F1 12-cylinder engine question as to its crankshaft design configuration. As mentioned that I have read somewhere that somebody from Australia (a Subaru nut) claimed to have acquired spare engines and parts including un machined castings plus design drawings, This, his writing I managed to trace, it was something like five years back at that time, and the forum was ''Koenigsegg nearly having used the Subaru 12'' I have tried to make contact with him without success, His post on that Koenigsegg thread was as follows. ''@Anthonparle7342. lives in Australia and a Subaru nut. 5 years ago, my first purchase was the spare parts from the race team which was 3 engines in bits and a number of unmachined castings. we could build two complete engines and still have a lot of spares''.
Thank you very much for that Information, it is very hard to find people who actually worked with these engines. Im going to look further into it, hopefully with success!

mnauno
mnauno
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2025 8:27 pm

Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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Greg Locock wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 9:51 pm
Given that Ferrari (somewhat famous for their engines, and should know better) called their flat V12 a Boxer, when it wasn't, shows how misused the terminology is. If it's got 6 crankpins it's a flat V12 if it has 12 it's a boxer, and in my whacky reinterpretation if it has two single cylinder crankpins and 5 doubles it might be a boxer.

In Ferrari's defence from wiki "Ferrari engine designer Mauro Forghieri stated "Please, don't call it boxer. Technically, it is correct to say that this engine is a flat-12, or has 12 cylinders with the heads at a vee angle of 180°"
Exactly, its astonishing that even car makers misuse the term accidently or willingy, no wonder there's so much confusion around this.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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A car/engine maker does not misuse the term (BOXER or BOXER ENGINE) accidently.

mnauno
mnauno
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2025 8:27 pm

Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:50 pm
A car/engine maker does not misuse the term (BOXER or BOXER ENGINE) accidently.
It's marketing then.

mnauno
mnauno
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2025 8:27 pm

Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:39 am
The Subaru F1 12-cylinder engine question as to its crankshaft design configuration. As mentioned that I have read somewhere that somebody from Australia (a Subaru nut) claimed to have acquired spare engines and parts including un machined castings plus design drawings, This, his writing I managed to trace, it was something like five years back at that time, and the forum was ''Koenigsegg nearly having used the Subaru 12'' I have tried to make contact with him without success, His post on that Koenigsegg thread was as follows. ''@Anthonparle7342. lives in Australia and a Subaru nut. 5 years ago, my first purchase was the spare parts from the race team which was 3 engines in bits and a number of unmachined castings. we could build two complete engines and still have a lot of spares''.
Hi, do you have a link to that forum/post by any chance? I've tried finding it but unfortunately without success.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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mnauno wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:57 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:39 am
The Subaru F1 12-cylinder engine question as to its crankshaft design configuration. As mentioned that I have read somewhere that somebody from Australia (a Subaru nut) claimed to have acquired spare engines and parts including un machined castings plus design drawings, This, his writing I managed to trace, it was something like five years back at that time, and the forum was ''Koenigsegg nearly having used the Subaru 12'' I have tried to make contact with him without success, His post on that Koenigsegg thread was as follows. ''@Anthonparle7342. lives in Australia and a Subaru nut. 5 years ago, my first purchase was the spare parts from the race team which was 3 engines in bits and a number of unmachined castings. we could build two complete engines and still have a lot of spares''.
Hi, do you have a link to that forum/post by any chance? I've tried finding it but unfortunately without success.
Try trace as follows. ''How Koenigsegg nearly used a Subaru F1 engine in its supercars'' - YouTube drivetrib 26 Jan 2019. the forum-555 comments, @anthonparle 7342 post is 4th post from top.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Is the Subaru 1235 F1 engine an actual boxer engine?

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true opposed-piston designs were known to designers 150 years ago
eg 120 years ago the (vertically)-opposed piston Gobron-Brillie was the world's fastest car
G-B cars were OP till 1922
post-WW1 BMW 'reverse-engineered' the (100000 built) Douglas & Rover 'flat twin' cars were legally copied in Germany
maybe this later triggered the term 'boxer' to distinguish in Germany 'flat' engines from true opposed-piston engines
(OP 2 stroke diesels having become prominent)
OP engines without crankshafts also existed ('free-piston' engines)
ie OP engines could have 3 crankpins per cylinder - or none

regarding 'our' cars .....
the 2-pin flat 4 is compact and has very good balance - but is less attractive when a 3rd main bearing is required
(there was c.1950 in the UK the Anderson F2 flat 8 with 2 main bearings)
the 4-pin 3 main bearing flat 8 (as Tecno) has perfect balance (but paired firing)
the 8-pin 9 main bearing flat 8 (aircooled Porsche) has slightly worse balance (and individual firing)
the 4-pin seems to have less problems with tuned-length exhaust system design

remember - the WC-winning flat 12 Ferrari had 6 crankpins and 4 main bearings (after trying 3 mains)