Beating Button

[Richard]

I was talking about Vettel being closer than Jenson to the "fantastic" league. Wasn´t fantastic to win at Monza the way he did with a Toro Roso???

I think I can see potential to agree with you. Having been in F1 for a long while, Buttton appears to be closer to Hill than Senna.

Vettel is still too new to say what his direction would be. He seems to have the personality to be closer to Senna than Button, BUT he needs to back it up by building a track record of good performances. Equally he could be one of those outstanding characters in the paddock but no faster than average, a Jean Alesi for example.

1990 was his first full year in Grand Prix racing, with the underfunded Tyrrell team. At the first event, the United States Grand Prix at Phoenix, he was a sensation, leading for 25 laps in front of Ayrton Senna with a car considered as inferior, and also re-passing Senna after the Brazilian had first overtaken for the lead. Second place in the Monaco Grand Prix followed the second place gained in Phoenix, and by mid-season, top teams were clamouring for his services in 1991. A very confused situation erupted, with Tyrrell, Williams, and Ferrari all claiming to have signed the driver within a very short period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Alesi

Sounds familiar - both Vettel and Button?

[Shaddock]

r even Vettel are closer to that than Jenson.

Vettel and Hamilton are better drivers IMO but that can't always make them champions...being quick simply isn't enough, as Lewis found out in 2007 and nearly in 2008.

The last couple of years we have had two teams with pretty equal cars from the start of the season. Some tracks slightly favoured McLaren, others Ferrari, but it was close all season long. We have also had 3/4 world class drivers (WDC's) competing in those cars, unlike this years contenders.

[sticky667]

This is what I dont understand?

What has Vettel done to earn this thought whilst Button is not in the same league? Just exactly what does Button lack compared to Vettel?

Age. He's 29 and he never won a WDC so far. But short memory tends to neglect Hakkinnen and Shummi, and even uncompetitive cars.

And to his defence, he didn't crack under pressure because he never had any real pressure. Except from tabloids.

Jenson is more than capable and he proved that with 85 points in 2004 behind both of the dominate F2004 Ferrari's. Only Schumi and Barrichello in a far superior car beat him to the title.

you hit the nail on the head with this quote "But short memory tends to neglect Hakkinnen and Shummi, and even uncompetitive cars."

Vettel is good, but he can't handle the pressure during the race. He hasn't been able to make those "need to pass" moves to secure his podium finish. Jenson on the other hand has the race craft and the balls to make those moves for his strategy to work. This year he's finally got a great car and he's shown his great driving skills we saw in 2004.

[modbaraban]

As a final argument to all who said Button isn't particularity fantastic.

That's exactly what Briatore said earlier this year.

----p-e-r-i-o-d-----



@ PNSD no probs.

[WhiteBlue]

I think that the FIA's decision to legalize the DDDs made all the difference for Button. He clearly had the best DDD car and he set out to make hay while the sun was shining. His second half of the season is rather ignominous. He supported his title chances by making very few if any serious mistakes and keeping a cool head in the races. He will owe his title largely to the FIA who approved DDD. I think that they did it mainly to return some "favours" to Montezemolo and FOTA.

[tarzoon]

I think that the FIA's decision to legalize the DDDs made all the difference for Button. He clearly had the best DDD car and he set out to make hay while the sun was shining. His second half of the season is rather ignominous. He supported his title chances by making very few if any serious mistakes and keeping a cool head in the races. He will owe his title largely to the FIA who approved DDD. I think that they did it mainly to return some "favours" to Montezemolo and FOTA.

Why is everyone trying to take the credit away from Button?

In the same line of thought, one can argue that Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinnen, Shummi and so many others before them won because they had the best car.

Shall we diminish their talent also?


As Villeneuve mentioned on sunday on BBC, it's tough to keep up the competitive pace for 10 months. Two tenths may be the difference between winning and finishing 10th. And this season it's been quite tight

[sticky667]

We can also say Schumi won so many championships because of the FerrarIA.

[szlaszlo84]

I think that the FIA's decision to legalize the DDDs made all the difference for Button. He clearly had the best DDD car and he set out to make hay while the sun was shining. His second half of the season is rather ignominous. He supported his title chances by making very few if any serious mistakes and keeping a cool head in the races. He will owe his title largely to the FIA who approved DDD. I think that they did it mainly to return some "favours" to Montezemolo and FOTA.

How on Earth did they return any favors to Montezomolo? Or FOTA for that matter? Half of FOTA, including Ferrari was against the use of DDD. It was a necessity to allow DDD, in order to keep all the teams participating in the Championship. The fact that 3 teams arrived at the same conclusion independently shows that rules are either clear yes or no or they don't exist. Undoubtedly Button had the best race car of the field at the beginning, but likewise did Barrichello. Button is still leading the Championship. And none of the other teams managed to consistenly challenge Button. There may have been better drivers at each independent race but the winner of one struggled on the next and Button like a good hounddog was always right behind.

We will see if he manages to keep it together for the last 3 races. He is looking set to win it in my opinion. I would love Barrichello to win it, but to outscore Button by 16 in 3 races is pretty tough challenge (16 cuz Button would still have more race wins, right?). Vettel in my opinion has no chance whatsoever.

[modbaraban]

I think that the FIA's decision to legalize the DDDs...

This statement is quite simply false. And therefore is all the following argument.

FIA never legalized DDD. They were legal since 2008. Or were you trying to say that FIA benefited Brawn by not changing the rules in the middle of the game?

[megz]

I think that the FIA's decision to legalize the DDDs made all the difference for Button. He clearly had the best DDD car and he set out to make hay while the sun was shining. His second half of the season is rather ignominous. He supported his title chances by making very few if any serious mistakes and keeping a cool head in the races. He will owe his title largely to the FIA who approved DDD. I think that they did it mainly to return some "favours" to Montezemolo and FOTA.

Why is everyone trying to take the credit away from Button?

In the same line of thought, one can argue that Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinnen, Shummi and so many others before them won because they had the best car.

Shall we diminish their talent also?


As Villeneuve mentioned on sunday on BBC, it's tough to keep up the competitive pace for 10 months. Two tenths may be the difference between winning and finishing 10th. And this season it's been quite tight

Well it has to be said most of the champions of late have had other serious competitors in cars that were similarly capable. Lewis had to fight off Massa, Kimi fought off Massa, Fernando AND Lewis. Fernando fought off Schumi in '06 and Kimi in '05 - although again that could have been Kimi's 1st/2nd WDC with more reliability. Button hasn't had that competition, he still has one of the best cars yet hasn't won another GP since the rest cought up.

Button did well in a great car. Barrichello has come alive in what is still a great car and now has more serious competition from McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari to an extent. It'd be interesting to see who has scored the most points since say Turkey.

[ds.raikkonen]

I rate Rubens below Jenson, and my opinion is he was born to be 2nd.

What makes you say that? Eh? I think Rubens has out performed JB in the recent races and deserves equal respect. He s gonna take it to the wire....this is nt MSC era, where he ll have to pull over to let his team mate pass or else lose his seat, not anymore, he s going for it big time!

[Miguel]

I think that the FIA's decision to legalize the DDDs made all the difference for Button. He clearly had the best DDD car and he set out to make hay while the sun was shining.

On the other hand, had the FIA ruled the DDD's illegal, the two RBR drivers would have run with the championship with incredible ease. And not due to driving ability (even though Mark and Sebastian are two of the most talented drivers on the grid).

[WhiteBlue]

I think that the FIA's decision to legalize the DDDs made all the difference for Button. He clearly had the best DDD car and he set out to make hay while the sun was shining.

On the other hand, had the FIA ruled the DDD's illegal, the two RBR drivers would have run with the championship with incredible ease. And not due to driving ability (even though Mark and Sebastian are two of the most talented drivers on the grid).

I agree that the RBR probable was the best designed car to the spirit of the rule. I reserve the personal opinion that the FIA's decision on the DDDs was a political one motivated by hurting Monte and Ferrari. There are probably many folks out there who would see this differently, but that will not change my opinion. I don't claim my view to be fact but I remain convinced that it did work that way.

[axle]

I don't deny there is possibly something political in it...however it would have been very difficult for the FIA if they had banned them having allowed them during private discussions with the teams who ran the concept from the outset.

I know they said no to Renault and Redbull but there must have been a fundemental difference in their interpretations to the Williams, Brawn and Toyota ones; and they couldn't just say no Redbull and Renault you need to do it like this...

End of the day the rules are too ambiguous, but they are the rules.

[Huggy]

It'd be interesting to see who has scored the most points since say Turkey.

Since you asked

Rubens Barrichello 34
Kimi Räikkönen 31
Sebastian Vettel 30
Lewis Hamilton 28
Mark Webber 24
Jenson Button 23
Nico Rosberg 19
Heikki Kovalainen 18
Fernando Alonso 15
Felipe Massa 11
Timo Glock 11
Giancarlo Fisichella 8
Robert Kubica 7
Nick Heidfeld 6
Adrian Sutil 5
Jarno Trulli 3

Would make an interesting end to the season 4 drivers from 4 teams in the hunt with 2 outsiders