Williams blocking increased brake disc sizes for 2010

[axle]

BS rules? All other FOTA teams agreed to no KERS for next year, if Ferrari and McLaren have accepted this, why can't Williams?

Regardless, if Williams is the only one against bigger brake discs they will likely be forced to cave to the pressure of all the other FOTA teams, or risk being kicked out of FOTA again.

FOTA's rule are BS. shortsighted. F1 shoul dhave adopted Mosley's rules for 2010 and beyond.

Good on Williams for sticking to their guns. KERS is the way forward.
what we do need to do is drop carbon brakes though. Bigger rims lower profile tyre and steel discs. Cost will come down too.

Eek nooo carbon discs should stay, but maybe the pad/disc could be changed to reduce friction and therefore extend braking distances...no horrid looking large diameter wheels please!!!

[gibells]

F1 is not about being the quickest around the track. The FIA has made sure of that by their constant bans on technology. It's about coming out on top against the biggest and best brains in the business.

I would definitely support the use of non-carbon brakes, or keeping the brakes the same with the increased loadings next year. I'm pretty sure that would result in increased braking distances anyway. Either way we will have more variables in the equation.

Aside from this, Williams argument seems pretty stupid to me anyway. They haven't bothered with the pain of developing their KERS this year so using KERS next year smacks of hypocracy. They just seem to want to get a head start on the other teams.

Consider the following:
1. Williams signing up to FIA early
2. Williams staying out of FOTA to use KERS
3. FIA incredibly upping the weight limit to 620kg, the year after KERS was allowed.
4. Williams blocking the increase in disc size.

These all point to Williams being FIA puppets. The question is WHY?

[ISLAMATRON]

big risk there

the rules mandate unanimous vote to change rules within 1 year... If any team says no then it aint gonna happen.

FOTA fought to keep the 2009 rules for 2010(and beyond) and now they want to change a whole bunch of ---.

And no, not all teams in FOTA voted to get rid of KERS, but FOTA is a majority decision body. So 5 teams can choose the destiny of the whole FOTA.

Fota wanted the same rules to reduce costs. The only changes fota now wants to make are logical. They had no say in the refueling ban and so now they are trying to adjust the rules to compensate for the new fuel loads. Lastly they want Kers gone due to dev costs.

That statement in bold shows that you have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about.

FOTA proposed and pushed the refueling ban, as they did with the ban of inseason testing(super bright idea that is), FOTA is merely the wishes of Ferrari and its agreeing lackeys and is destroying the "Technical DNA" of F1.

I have no problem with the refueling ban, but if the goal is to reduce costs(which is the biggest problem with F1) then changing all these other aspects of the car unnecessarily to match is absurd.

FOTA and their BS resource restriction agreement, will force us to have the least technical championships ever for at least the next 3 years.

If their "resource rstriction agreement" is so great, why are they so secretive about it? It is nothing but a scheme to allow the rich teams to continue to outspend the smaller teams doubly and triple but still lower their own costs. The smaller teams will still die, and F1 will be worse off for it.

[ISLAMATRON]

Eek nooo carbon discs should stay,

What is so important about carbon discs?

Why not ceramic? or steel?

I dont see why so many are so attached o the carbon discs... it brings nothing to our road cars. It is massively more expesive, and those clouds of dust cant be great for anyone to breath in.

Everyone uses the same sub-contractors, so nobody has a real advantage, so much money for a part that gives no advantage, that is essentially developed to its maximum already, and has no road car relevance... it should be gone.

Same with carbon fiber suspensions, plus the steel ones are safer.

Braking distances would be about the same, as they are dictated by tire grip(and thus also DF).

[timbo]

it brings nothing to our road cars

What do slick tyres bring for our road cars?

[ISLAMATRON]

it brings nothing to our road cars

What do slick tyres bring for our road cars?

telephone poles, but we all know they dont use slicks when it is raining, and the inters & wets developed for F1 and other racing series have vastly improved road tires. And even with the slicks, some of the compound and construction technology have made it to road tires.

[timbo]

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Aeronautical ... Brakes.htm

[Shaddock]

With the lack of engine braking we have seen greater braking distances and drivers having to modulate their pedal pressure during downchanges.

I think there are three manufactures of brakes in F1. Carbone Industries, apparently these are the most hard wearing and what most teams use or switch to at Canada. Hitco favoured by Alonso and Rubens, allowing drivers to jump on them very hard on initial braking, and Brembo’s that are used by Ferrari, except at high wear tracks.

The FIA have always (in the past) shied away from going back to steel discs on safety grounds.

[ISLAMATRON]

Great info Shaddock.... What safety grounds? Brake fade/overheating? any others?

There was a report a couple years ago about possible health risks for the drivers(and everyone) from breathing in the carbon dust... any more word on that?

[flynfrog]

carbon fiber dust is classified as an irritant and has pretty high exposure limits. It is also classified as non cacogenic. I believe but don’t have time to look right now but I think it you are allowed more exposure time than with fiberglass.

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_1.html

Carbon/graphite fibers dominate the advanced composites industry and may be made from any of three precursors, as discussed in Section C. However, the PAN-based carbon fibers are the predominant form in use today. It is important to ascertain which type of carbon-fiber precursor is used in order to evaluate the hazards.

Pitch-based carbon fibers may be associated with an increased risk of skin cancer, although the evidence is weak. PAN-based carbon fibers did not cause tumors when the same test was conducted. Standard mutagenicity tests conducted on PAN-based carbon fibers were negative.

The principal hazards of carbon-fiber handling are mechanical irritation and abrasion similar to that of glass fibers. Skin rashes are common and reportedly more severe than from glass fibers. Carbon fibers commonly in use are also greater than six micrometers in diameter, making them unlikely to be respirable. An ongoing survey of workers in a carbon-fiber production plant shows no pulmonary function abnormalities and no evidence of dust-related disease.

Carbon fibers may be coated with a material to improve handling, known generically as sizing. The sizing materials are typically epoxy resins. They may be biologically active and cause irritation or sensitization.

Make your case that the pinnacle of racing should use steel disks?

[flynfrog]

DUSTS


Dusts may be generated in several ways in advanced composite processes. The most common dust-generating processes are machining and finishing of cured parts and in repair of damaged parts. Much of the dust generated in these processes can be very fine and should be considered respirable. Studies of some graphite-epoxy finishing operations found respirable fractions ranging from 25% to 100%.


More dust is usually generated in finishing and repair processes since large surface areas are involved. Grinding, routing and sanding are frequently used methods in both processes. The repair process may require the use of abrasive blasting as well as sanding to remove existing paint or coatings. Typically, a synthetic blasting agent, e.g., plastic media blast, is used. Ingredients of the paint or coating being removed, such as lead or chromates, may also be of concern. The repair process may also require cutting or sawing to remove the damaged part area, and both may generate significant amounts of airborne dust.


In general, studies on composite dusts indicate that:


The dusts are particulate in nature and usually contain few fibers;
The dusts are thermally stable up to 250 °C and exhibit a high degree of cure; and
Toxicology studies indicate the dusts should probably be controlled at levels below the PEL for inert dust, but not approaching the PEL for crystalline quartz.

[Shaddock]

Great info Shaddock.... What safety grounds? Brake fade/overheating? any others?

There was a report a couple years ago about possible health risks for the drivers(and everyone) from breathing in the carbon dust... any more word on that?

Brake fade; Drivers have to be able to stop at the end of the straight when they are travelling at 200mph+

Max also mentioned 'semi-auto' boxes as being an enhancement of safety as the driver has two hands on the wheel. Well that might have been then, before they festooned the wheel with more buttons than the Space Shuttle.

edit: A couple of intresting facts I was able to dig out to compare 07 (with engine braking) and 08 without. The braking phase for Jenson was lasting 50% longer in 08 than 07. Drivers are overlaping the throttle and braking phases, in JB's case 30% throttle to stabilise the rear end whilst braking, and a more more forward shift in brake bias.


Was the last person to use steel discs in F1 Michael Andretti in the McLaren

[ISLAMATRON]

Great info Shaddock.... What safety grounds? Brake fade/overheating? any others?

There was a report a couple years ago about possible health risks for the drivers(and everyone) from breathing in the carbon dust... any more word on that?

Brake fade; Drivers have to be able to stop at the end of the straight when they are travelling at 200mph+

After the long straight reaching 200 mph I would think the brakes would have cooled down enough to not be a problem, I'd think they'd have more problems in the twisty bits... I've even heard of them dragging the brakes down the straight in order to get/keep heat in them.

[Giblet]

I read a few years ago about a driver from the 80's having some pretty sever lung problems as a result of the brake dust. Can't remember who for the life of me. Berger? Alesi? Someone of that vintage.

I guess MS is in such good health as he spent so little time following other cars, relative to, say, Rubens.

[CMSMJ1]

Was the last person to use steel discs in F1 Michael Andretti in the McLaren

No - it was Zanardi at Williams...I recall he tried the Steels as he could not get a feel for the carbon setup.