Williams blocking increased brake disc sizes for 2010

[RH1300S]

Great info Shaddock.... What safety grounds? Brake fade/overheating? any others?

There was a report a couple years ago about possible health risks for the drivers(and everyone) from breathing in the carbon dust... any more word on that?

Brake fade; Drivers have to be able to stop at the end of the straight when they are travelling at 200mph+

Max also mentioned 'semi-auto' boxes as being an enhancement of safety as the driver has two hands on the wheel. Well that might have been then, before they festooned the wheel with more buttons than the Space Shuttle.

edit: A couple of intresting facts I was able to dig out to compare 07 (with engine braking) and 08 without. The braking phase for Jenson was lasting 50% longer in 08 than 07. Drivers are overlaping the throttle and braking phases, in JB's case 30% throttle to stabilise the rear end whilst braking, and a more more forward shift in brake bias.


Was the last person to use steel discs in F1 Michael Andretti in the McLaren

Interesting stuff Shaddock - I am surprised that difference is so great.

I agree - although carbon brakes look like an easy target, until they get rid of the car's ability to generate grip (downforce mostly) then they MUST have brakes that can withstand the high levels of use without fading.

Perhaps iron brakes can do that? I don't know.

Carbon brakes will only stop you as hard as the tyres let you anyway.

[Shaddock]

Great info Shaddock.... What safety grounds? Brake fade/overheating? any others?

There was a report a couple years ago about possible health risks for the drivers(and everyone) from breathing in the carbon dust... any more word on that?

Brake fade; Drivers have to be able to stop at the end of the straight when they are travelling at 200mph+

Max also mentioned 'semi-auto' boxes as being an enhancement of safety as the driver has two hands on the wheel. Well that might have been then, before they festooned the wheel with more buttons than the Space Shuttle.

edit: A couple of intresting facts I was able to dig out to compare 07 (with engine braking) and 08 without. The braking phase for Jenson was lasting 50% longer in 08 than 07. Drivers are overlaping the throttle and braking phases, in JB's case 30% throttle to stabilise the rear end whilst braking, and a more more forward shift in brake bias.


Was the last person to use steel discs in F1 Michael Andretti in the McLaren

Interesting stuff Shaddock - I am surprised that difference is so great.

I agree - although carbon brakes look like an easy target, until they get rid of the car's ability to generate grip (downforce mostly) then they MUST have brakes that can withstand the high levels of use without fading.

Perhaps iron brakes can do that? I don't know.

Carbon brakes will only stop you as hard as the tyres let you anyway.

I think it the cooling down period for steel discs that's the issue. Once they start to 'glow' braking at the end of long straight, they will still be glowing by the time the drivers hit the brakes for the next corner.

[RacingManiac]

carbon brake just get rid of that heat much quicker than steel. which is a problem especially for tracks like Montreal since you are braking-accelerating constantly with relatively little time to cool the brake, which makes a thermal-runaway a real problem...

Did FOTA actually started the test ban? I seem to recall that FIA has been steadily killing testing time before this year....not sure whats with all the FOTA hate anyway, do someone actually believe that you can have an open rule, under a budget cap(at a 10th of what the current budget is), AND to have the most advanced tech available with ample test and R&D time? Are we making everything out of paper and costs nothing to do design-build-test and race?

[QUARTERLITER]

Before you all get excited about inboard brakes, perhaps you should consider the fate of Jochen Rindt.

[vasia]

Wow some of the comments here are incredible, makes it sound as if this place is not 'F1Technical', but 'F1TechnicallyImpossible'.

Steel brakes?
Lower-profile tires?
Steel suspension?
FOTA proposed the in-season testing ban?

These things mentioned are all horribly wrong.

It seems as some people here are very short-sighted, and forget what happened with steel suspension and a certain driver at Imola in 1994. Steel brakes, for practical, performance, and safety reasons cannot and will not be used. Lower-profile tires for the same reasons will not be used. Also going backwards in technology in the pinnacle of motorsports just for cost savings is ludicrous.

Also some clarification; it was the FIA that originally came up with, and pushed through the in-season testing ban. FOTA, for bargaining reasons, simply accepted and went along with the FIA's decision.

[ISLAMATRON]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 0850.shtml

The following measures to reduce costs in Formula One have been agreed by the World Motor Sport Council.

These proposed changes have the unanimous agreement of the Formula One teams, who have played a major role in their development.

Key amongst the changes is the banning of in-season testing in 2009 with low-cost engines supply, the banning of tyre warmers and refuelling from 2010.

2009

Engine
Engine life to be doubled. Each driver will use a maximum of eight engines for the season plus four for testing (thus 20 per team).

Limit of 18,000 rpm.

No internal re-tuning. Adjustment to trumpets and injectors only.

The three-race rule voted on 5 November remains in force.

Cost of engines to independent teams will be approximately 50% of 2008 prices.

Unanimous agreement was reached on a list of proposed changes to the Renault engine for 2009; all other engines will remain unchanged. Comparative testing will not be necessary.

Testing
No in-season testing except during race weekend during scheduled practice.

Aerodynamic research
No wind tunnel exceeding 60% scale and 50 metres/sec to be used after 1 January 2009.

A formula to balance wind tunnel-based research against CFD research, if agreed between the teams, will be proposed to the FIA.



Factory activity
Factory closures for six weeks per year, to accord with local laws.

Race weekend
Manpower to be reduced by means of a number of measures, including sharing information on tyres and fuel to eliminate the need for “spotters”.

Sporting spectacle
Market research is being conducted to gauge the public reaction to a number of new ideas, including possible changes to qualifying and a proposal for the substitution of medals for points for the drivers. Proposals will be submitted to the FIA when the results of the market research are known.

Note: It is estimated that these changes for 2009 will save the manufacturer teams approximately 30% of their budgets compared to 2008, while the savings for independent teams will be even greater.

2010

Power train
Engines will be available to the independent teams for less than €5 million per team per season. These will either come from an independent supplier or be supplied by the manufacturer teams backed by guarantees of continuity. If an independent supplier, the deal will be signed no later than 20 December 2008.

This same engine will continue to be used in 2011 and 2012 (thus no new engine for 2011).

Subject to confirmation of practicability, the same transmission will be used by all teams.

Chassis
A list of all elements of the chassis will be prepared and a decision taken in respect of each element as to whether or not it will remain a performance differentiator (competitive element).

Some elements which remain performance differentiators will be homologated for the season.

Some elements will remain performance differentiators, but use inexpensive materials.

Elements which are not performance differentiators will be prescriptive and be obtained or manufactured in the most economical possible way.

Race weekend
Standardised radio and telemetry systems.

Ban on tyre warmers.

Ban on mechanical purging of tyres.

Ban on refuelling.

Possible reduction in race distance or duration (proposal to follow market research).

Factory activity
Further restrictions on aerodynamic research.

Ban on tyre force rigs (other than vertical force rigs).

Full analysis of factory facilities with a view to proposing further restrictions on facilities.

Longer term

The FIA and FOTA will study the possibility of an entirely new power train for 2013 based on energy efficiency (obtaining more work from less energy consumed). Rules to be framed so as to ensure that research and development of such a power train would make a real contribution to energy-efficient road transport.

An enhanced Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) system is likely to be a very significant element of an energy-efficient power train in the future. In the short term, KERS is part of the 2009 regulations, but is not compulsory. For 2010 FOTA is considering proposals for a standard KERS system. The FIA awaits proposals.

A number of further amendments were adopted for the 2009 and 2010 Sporting and Technical Regulations.





And some other interesting FACTS in articles many of you like to disregard/forget and or ignore.
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 1930.shtml
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 3528.shtml
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 2149.shtml
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 4924.shtml

[ISLAMATRON]

VAsia do you know the meaning of "RUBBERSTAMP"?

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 0247.shtml

Friday morning's meeting of the World Motor Sport Council in Monaco is expected to rubber-stamp cost-slashing proposals that will avoid the need to install a standard engine formula in 2010.

The proposals, although not yet publicly confirmed, were agreed between FIA President Max Mosley and F1's nine teams at a meeting in the Principality earlier this week.

Following Honda's shock departure from the sport, FOTA Chairman Luca di Montezemolo said the teams had been motivated to act in unison due to the economically "difficult moment of our sport."

The details are expected to be unveiled later on Friday, but it is understood that - instead of going ahead with Mosley's standard Cosworth engine proposal - it has been agreed that F1's current generation of 2.4 litre V8s can be detuned to cut costs.

This will be achieved by expanding mandatory engine unit life from two races in 2008 to four races in 2009, and also reducing the rev limit from 19,000 to 18,000 rpm.



Additionally, the manufacturers will commit to making available customer engines to potentially two independent teams apiece for no more than five million Euros per season.

This undertaking will have the natural effect of drastically containing engine development and running costs.

Another huge saving will be the total ban on circuit testing between the season opening Australian Grand Prix until November's final race of 2009 in Abu Dhabi.

It is also believed that teams have agreed to cut out at least one complete shift in their daily wind tunnel programmes, and by 2010 reduce staff numbers from the current up to 1000 to no more than 250 per team.

[ISLAMATRON]

More reading for those who refuse to accept the truth of reality

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 5856.shtml
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 5355.shtml


Anyone want to raise their hand to volunteer as the King of the idiots and claim that it was anyone other than FOTA who put in place the short sided test ban? amongst many other of their foolish ideas

[xpensive]

I suspect that some on this forum might agree that the Crown mentioned has already been held for quite a while.

[ISLAMATRON]

Again, I bring irrefutable proof, documentation, links, facts & evidence.... what do you bring to these forums?

[xpensive]

Again, I bring irrefutable proof, documentation, links, facts & evidence.... what do you bring to these forums?

[Richard]

errr... excuse me, sorry for interrupting, but does anyone know where that interesting conversation about brake disc sizes got to? I'm sure I saw it somewhere around here....

Back to OP

I'd have thought keeping the same brake disc size has two advantages:

- Introduces an awkward constraint, hence emphasises the need for creative thinking.

- We know that aero limits are hard to enforce, whereas brake and tyre size are relatively easy. Introducing uncertainty into the grip (smaller front tyres) and braking will make the braking zone harder to negotiate, and that's where we'll see more overtaking.

[xpensive]

Creative thinking? Right, how about changing brake-discs with the tyres?

[bazanaius]

It's hard enough changing the discs at the best of times, let alone trying to do it in 7s..!

[vasia]

Again, I bring irrefutable proof, documentation, links, facts & evidence.... what do you bring to these forums?

Irrefutable proof? Do you believe EVERYTHING written in the media, and ALL paddock rumors? Do you take EVERYTHING literally? Do you even know how to separate the rubbish from the truth? Do you know how to read between the lines?

The in-season testing ban was JOINTLY discussed by the FIA and FOTA. FOTA AGREED to the ban in order to stop standard engines from being implemented in F1, among other things. Mosley PERSONALLY being against the ban has NOTHING to do with this. That is just some misdirection. The World Motor Sport Council gave FINAL APPROVAL on the testing ban.

If FOTA was the mastermind behind the testing ban, then WHY have NUMEROUS FOTA teams complained about the ban for MONTHS?

If you honestly believe FOTA was the true mastermind behind the in-season testing ban, I have nothing more to say or discuss with you.

Getting back on topic, I'd like to hear some more "great" arguments supporting steel suspension, and steel brakes all in the name of cost cutting .

What some of you obviously didn't realize is that steel compared to carbon fiber would add a lot of weight, which would have an effect on all parts of the car. Added weight means bigger/stronger brakes, it means decreased efficiency, it means more tire wear, and the list goes on. That's not even getting into the arguments regarding performance, practicality, and safety, not to mention the unsuitability for the pinnacle of motorsports.