Engine choice...which would be better

[Shaddock]

Possibly this choice has something to do with financials?

Less than it used to. With a better position in the standings and reduced operating costs + the loss of Rosberg's wages I'd expect Williams to be able to pay for engines next year not go for a freebie.

The Toyota deal served a purpose whilst the company was being restructured.

But why did Williams leave Cossy and move to Toyota in the first place? It wasn't for the Toyota's power, as it was rumoured to be 30-50hp (depending on trim) shy of the Cosworth plant. What it did have was 'Kudos' and the Toyota badge - (the worlds largest car manufacturer) This makes attracting sponsors easier and increases Williams brand value.

[ISLAMATRON]

They got free engines from Toyota, and that was back(between 06/07) when an engine package was costing customer teams over $25M US a year. Of course Kazoo(part of the free engine deal with Toyo) may have cost them more than that this year by not scoring any points.

Basically they did it because they were broke!

[xpensive]

If the Toyota's are for free, I think Williams is making a mistake dumping them, unless there's a mystery sponsor to come?

[WhiteBlue]

I am surprised by the trend to Cosworth as well. Toyota are definitely out as we hear from Howett. Cosworth must have demonstrated some rapid progress in terms of reliability and fuel consumption for this to happen.

It cannot only be a sponsor involvement. On the other hand if Williams landed VW/Porsche or another automotive sponsor it would explain things.

BMW are aparently selling their engine department and that may be an opportunity not only for McLaren but for any automotive company. How about Lotus new owners in Malaysia?

[xpensive]

Could it be that the Cosworth is offered at a bargain price, due to one or two of the new teams not showing up in 2010?

Even if the Toyotas are entirely for free, which I doubt to be honest, a one-car team such as Williams is also costly.

[Raptor22]

coolant and oil temps are not that important...

whats important is time to rpm,
torque and power curves, etc

coolant and oil temp are moot because the engines used today are designed to be std, not bespoke, hence they have std performance curves with a std airbox. Oil temp is a specified figure and will determine heat exchanger size and layout of radiators etc.

for selecting an engine you want performance curves, fuel economu figures and you want to test response to different mapping.

The Ferrari engine responds well to different mapping, the Toyota is more sensitive which means they probably need to do some work on their valve train and internal gas flow.

I'd select the engine that gives me the best drivability for fuel consumption.
Lower consumption means I can carry less fuel.

refueling is banned next year

oil and coolant temps are very important. They affect the cooling inlet sizes on the car and the aero they distrupt.

Sure but that is not as important a criteria as drivability.
Looking at hot iar outlets on current cars, the Ferrari engine seems to run warmer than the Renault but it also seems more drivable and a little more powerful.

Radiator size will not vary so significantly that it will provide a significant aerodynamic benefit. Power and torque curves are what engineers base decisions on how good an engine is.

[Jersey Tom]

coolant and oil temps are not that important...

whats important is time to rpm,
torque and power curves, etc

coolant and oil temp are moot because the engines used today are designed to be std, not bespoke, hence they have std performance curves with a std airbox. Oil temp is a specified figure and will determine heat exchanger size and layout of radiators etc.

for selecting an engine you want performance curves, fuel economu figures and you want to test response to different mapping.

The Ferrari engine responds well to different mapping, the Toyota is more sensitive which means they probably need to do some work on their valve train and internal gas flow.

I'd select the engine that gives me the best drivability for fuel consumption.
Lower consumption means I can carry less fuel.

refueling is banned next year

oil and coolant temps are very important. They affect the cooling inlet sizes on the car and the aero they distrupt.

Sure but that is not as important a criteria as drivability.
Looking at hot iar outlets on current cars, the Ferrari engine seems to run warmer than the Renault but it also seems more drivable and a little more powerful.

Radiator size will not vary so significantly that it will provide a significant aerodynamic benefit. Power and torque curves are what engineers base decisions on how good an engine is.

Really not true, dude. Professional race engine manufacturers go through a lot of trouble on their dyno's to control water and oil temperature. They have a big effect on engine performance.

In amateur racing sure, maybe you could ask a manufacturer for just a "torque curve." With how competitive pro motorsport is, and how big a deal signing an engine contract is, you have got to get every bit of data you can in advance.

The cooling requirements and temperature sensitivity of an engine are not trivial points. Everyone knows about torque curves and mass... it's carefully characterizing everything else that has the potential to set a winner apart.

[BreezyRacer]

Cosworth will be able to come in with a clean slate and a knowledge of how "reliability updates" have been used to build more power. They will have the advantage IMO.

Of course, were it wide open the Merc is the only way to go. Renault, IMO has shown itself to be a whipping boy of the teams that REALLY care to win .. Ferrari and Merc. It's been two seasons now that "reliability upgrades" have been proven to sneak in more power and Renault has been snookered both times. They obviously still haven't learned how to play the game.

[Jersey Tom]

Cosworth will be able to come in with a clean slate and a knowledge of how "reliability updates" have been used to build more power. They will have the advantage IMO.

I'd agree with that.

In open development against Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault.. Cosworth might struggle. But if engine design is frozen, you just bring your best shot.

It's entirely possible Cosworth has been doing an R&D program since engine designs were frozen, and making big strides in performance while the series competitors were locked.

Who knows. There's no way anyone here really knows the in-depth pro's and con's of each engine package... or at least while being able to publicly speak of it.

[Scotracer]

Cosworth will be able to come in with a clean slate and a knowledge of how "reliability updates" have been used to build more power. They will have the advantage IMO.

I'd agree with that.

In open development against Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault.. Cosworth might struggle. But if engine design is frozen, you just bring your best shot.

It's entirely possible Cosworth has been doing an R&D program since engine designs were frozen, and making big strides in performance while the series competitors were locked.

Who knows. There's no way anyone here really knows the in-depth pro's and con's of each engine package... or at least while being able to publicly speak of it.

The engine that Cosworth has to bring in 2010 was the one homologated at the end of 2006 - I very much doubt the FIA will allow any "reliability upgrades" on the units when there's talk of Merc having to de-tune their motors.

[tc9604]

The Toyota engines have seemed to be fine all through the season. Certainly reliable and with some good quali and a few decent race performanced to boot.

However it would be nice in a way to see the return of Williams-Renault, assuming Renault do remain in the sport for a while.

These 'manufacturers', they're not as reliable as everyone once assumed!

[WhiteBlue]

dp

[WhiteBlue]

The engine that Cosworth has to bring in 2010 was the one homologated at the end of 2006 - I very much doubt the FIA will allow any "reliability upgrades" on the units when there's talk of Merc having to de-tune their motors.

You are certainly right that the Cosworth 2010 will be based on the 2006 engine. But restricting them to that level without upgrades is certainly not going to happen. Both the FIA and Cosworth have issued press releases saying that substantial development was carried out and is ongoing in oder to make the units competitive.

[ISLAMATRON]

Exactly, Cosworth will be much better than most here think.

[vasia]

Exactly, Cosworth will be much better than most here think.

The Cosworth engines also won't be as amazing as some people might be thinking.