2025 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 16 - 18

[AR3-GP]

The McLaren suffers quite clearly when following other cars.

It's a false narrative. Mclaren drivers said as much. I think what we are observing is that Mclaren drivers typically underperform in qualifying, but have the pace to move forwards in the races. So they catch and follow cars ahead much more frequently. The others rarely qualify behind slower cars, and thus are rarely in a position to follow. In Miami, George struggled to pass Kimi and Max struggled to pass George. They are no less susceptible to dirty air.

[pantherxxx]

Weather will be modest. Only 20 °C on Saturday, and 23°C on Sunday. So I expect that Red Bull will be close with Verstappen.

[AR3-GP]

[Quantum]

The McLaren suffers quite clearly when following other cars.

It's a false narrative. Mclaren drivers said as much. I think what we are observing is that Mclaren drivers typically underperform in qualifying, but have the pace to move forwards in the races. So they catch and follow cars ahead much more frequently. The others rarely qualify behind slower cars, and thus are rarely in a position to follow. In Miami, George struggled to pass Kimi and Max struggled to pass George. They are no less susceptible to dirty air.

Nah, i don't think so.

It's actually pretty evident at tracks that would expose the rear brakes to more built up heat than usual(ie stuck behind). A car that's wildly faster in race pace suddenly can't do anything unless a prevailing set of conditions allows it to, like a wider track, leading the first corner or having longer straights(ie clean air).
It's false to assert otherwise imo.

[AR3-GP]

The McLaren suffers quite clearly when following other cars.

It's a false narrative. Mclaren drivers said as much. I think what we are observing is that Mclaren drivers typically underperform in qualifying, but have the pace to move forwards in the races. So they catch and follow cars ahead much more frequently. The others rarely qualify behind slower cars, and thus are rarely in a position to follow. In Miami, George struggled to pass Kimi and Max struggled to pass George. They are no less susceptible to dirty air.

Nah, i don't think so.

It's actually pretty evident at tracks that would expose the rear brakes to more heat than usual. A car that's wildly faster in race pace suddenly can't do anything unless a prevailing set of conditions allows it to, like a wider track, leading the first corner or having longer straights.
It's false to assert otherwise imo.

What overtakes are Red Bull, Mercedes, and Ferrari making? It's an illusion created by circumstance (qualifying out of position), car characteristic (weaker DRS system), and poor race craft (see Bahrain vs Russell and Miami vs Verstappen).

[Seanspeed]

The McLaren suffers quite clearly when following other cars.

It's a false narrative. Mclaren drivers said as much. I think what we are observing is that Mclaren drivers typically underperform in qualifying, but have the pace to move forwards in the races. So they catch and follow cars ahead much more frequently. The others rarely qualify behind slower cars, and thus are rarely in a position to follow. In Miami, George struggled to pass Kimi and Max struggled to pass George. They are no less susceptible to dirty air.

Nah, i don't think so.

It's actually pretty evident at tracks that would expose the rear brakes to more built up heat than usual(ie stuck behind). A car that's wildly faster in race pace suddenly can't do anything unless a prevailing set of conditions allows it to, like a wider track, leading the first corner or having longer straights(ie clean air).
It's false to assert otherwise imo.

So your hunch is fact, and the word of Mclaren drivers, who would actually have incentive to claim otherwise, is unreliable? :/

Again, what Mclaren deal with is no different than to what other cars deal with when following another car too closely for too long. Yes, it's obvious that Mclaren duo wont always be able to exploit their race pace advantage at certain tracks, but that's very much not what the whole discussion here is going over. The claim being made is that the Mclaren has some kind of inherently worse problem in dirty air than others. That's what we're saying is wrong.

[venkyhere]

Two predictions :
Antonelli to finish ahead of Russel
Hamilton to trail LeClerc by a huge margin (both Q and R)

[f1isgood]

McLaren drivers might be fast at driving in clean air but both of them struggle a lot to overtake a car much slower than them, especially #4 who after seeing Jeddah happen multiple years still was stuck behind Lewis and then at Miami also was stuck unnecessarily behind Verstappen.

McLaren don't suffer from following. As AR3 said, their drivers simply don't perform in qualifying (they have had the car to basically take pole in every qualifying and fly off) and then in the race lack some race-craft to pass cars much slower than them.

Their dirty air problems are not any better/worse than the other three teams, not in any significant way.

[ali623]

The Red Bull is capable of poles.
The McLaren suffers quite clearly when following other cars.
It's a narrow track that doesn't lean well for overtaking.

Does it? They both followed Verstappen easily before eventually overtaking in Miami.

Miami being straight laden and far wider than Imola, yes.

The width of the track is irrelevant - the McLaren's were easily able to sit well within a second of Verstappen for multiple laps, in the corners too. Similar situation in Japan, although Norris struggled to get into MAx's DRS, Piastri sat well within a second of Norris for multiple laps.

I'd argue that the McLaren is actually one of the best cars on the grid at following closely, due to their pace obviously, but also their incredible tyre-managment traits.

[Quantum]

What is certain is that McLaren continues to struggle with aerodynamic turbulence. Piastri’s now-famous radio message in Belgium last year - "clean air is king" - remains just as relevant for his 2025 car.

Jon Noble and Rosario Giuliana
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/what ... ce-so-far/

“Erm, no,” Piastri replied. “Our car was still quicker. We were just in dirty air.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mark ... t-him-off/

“It was really tricky to follow out there, I couldn’t really stay with Max at the end of the first stint, just chewed up my tyres and then the clean air was nice after the pitstops,” said Piastri.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... sD0lBcJmDg

Qualifying is incredibly important. I think regardless of the kind of intra-team dynamics, with pit stop preferences and whatever that causes, just the power of clean air is so important. So I think regardless of that, you always want to be qualifying at the front," said the Australian to media present in Saudi Arabia

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/dirty-ai ... y-too-much


In fairness everyone struggles. But McLaren's pace advantage is nullified when stuck behind other cars in quite a few instances now. It might be due to their rear brake system, which may require cooler air to work to optimum and therefore negates the net benefit they get from it. But the possibility remains if Max plants the RB on pole, he has a decent chance of a win for the reason Piastri etc have outlined.

[Cs98]

What is certain is that McLaren continues to struggle with aerodynamic turbulence. Piastri’s now-famous radio message in Belgium last year - "clean air is king" - remains just as relevant for his 2025 car.

Jon Noble and Rosario Giuliana
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/what ... ce-so-far/

“Erm, no,” Piastri replied. “Our car was still quicker. We were just in dirty air.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mark ... t-him-off/

“It was really tricky to follow out there, I couldn’t really stay with Max at the end of the first stint, just chewed up my tyres and then the clean air was nice after the pitstops,” said Piastri.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... sD0lBcJmDg

Qualifying is incredibly important. I think regardless of the kind of intra-team dynamics, with pit stop preferences and whatever that causes, just the power of clean air is so important. So I think regardless of that, you always want to be qualifying at the front," said the Australian to media present in Saudi Arabia

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/dirty-ai ... y-too-much


In fairness everyone struggles. But McLaren's pace advantage is nullified when stuck behind other cars in quite a few instances now. It might be due to their rear brake system, which may require cooler air to work to optimum and therefore negates the net benefit they get from it. But the possibility remains if Max plants the RB on pole, he has a decent chance of a win for the reason Piastri etc have outlined.

The McLaren isn't uniquely susceptible to dirty air, it's simply the only car that is fast enough and good enough on its tyres to stay in the dirty air of a slower car for extended periods of time, everyone else has to fall back where they will not be as exposed. The false sampling and conclusions around this topic is very reminiscent of survivorship bias.

[search]

do the pictures look unusually "colorful" for you guys as well?

[stephen]

Williams are once again looking faster than Ferrari. They seem to be improving all the time.

[search]

looks like the super soft doesn't have much deg either

[Lasssept]

@F1GuyDan