2025 McLaren F1 Team

[mwillems]

It looks like McLaren has an advantage in traction zones, but it doesn't show out of every corner type and their advantage is not consistent across all tracks. They were really slow out of the hairpin in Suzuka for example, often losing 0.15-0.2s to Max there. But they were really good out of acque minerale in Imola. It looks like it's setup dependent, both for them and their rivals. It depends on who has to make most compromises for a specific track.

Difficult to properly read the actual advantage (if they even have any after Imola) McLaren has, because there's not been a stable reference. RedBull has been all over the place this season. They were decent in Australia, but bad in China. Really good in Japan, but really bad in Bahrain. Then they were really good in Jeddah (actually the fastest car by average pace), but then they suffered from really bad deg in Miami. And now again, they were really good in Imola, so let's see if they carry on with their top form in Monaco after upgrades.

Even the temperature factor that was considered the main culprit behind the dominance in Miami, can't actually be considered a stable data point, because track temp was higher in Imola and that did nothing. Track temps in Miami were also the same as they were in Jeddah but RedBull was faster there. McLaren's advantage doesn't seem to be dictated by them at all. They probably have the most balanced package that works really well across different tracks and the gap increases or decreases depending on how much competitors can get out of their car in a given weekend.

I feel like the temp thing may well work in extremes, but time will tell. Let's see what happens in more extreme temps with cold and wet or with high heat.

[venkyhere]

One thing I will caveat my comment with is Red Bull seem to carry a shade more rear downforce than McLaren currently which would make them appear to be stronger in those circumstances.

I personally think that’s what happened in Imola, which allowed Verstappen to have his commanding win- more rear DF, faster in the high speed corners, more DF meant he had less slip in those high speed corners which kept his deg under control.
I’m fully confident in McLaren- they certainly know more than me but they have only ran a spoon rear wing of some sort all season so far and I can’t help but feel a little more rear DF would change the picture slightly.

I’ve said before, I’m really looking forward to see the competitive picture when the full DF rear wings go on- I might be disappointed with the perforce when they do but that’s F1. As for Monaco- any driver from Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes or Ferrari can win that race because it’s so unique.

Redbull had ~7-8 kph higher top speed than Mclaren in Q & hence probably in the race as well (unless Max went ridiculously +4 +5 on his front flaps). How does that get explained if RB21 had more rear DF ?

[mwillems]

https://x.com/thomasmaheronf1/status/19 ... JYv-w&s=19

Trying to clip Macca? Or were they too close to the line?

Supposedly McLaren aren’t involved in the latest TDs

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/fia- ... en-battle/

Would you expect them to say anything different??

"At all times, the FIA has declared it is satisfied with what McLaren is doing with sources suggesting that its concept is "clever." This means that it was running at Imola exactly the same way as before.

McLaren team boss Andrea Stella has repeatedly suggested that rivals are looking in the wrong areas when it comes to pointing fingers at what his squad is doing - with it already having faced suspicions over flexi wings, water in tyres and mini-DRS.

Speaking at Imola last weekend, Stella said: "For us, it's good news when our rivals get their focus – rather than on themselves – onto some of the aspects that allegedly are present in our car, and that effectively are not even present.

"And certainly, even if they were – let's say, flexi-wings like a front wing deflection, like everyone else – it has nothing to do with the reason why McLaren is very competitive.

"So, I hope that in the future there will be more of these kinds of sagas because it means that our rivals keep focusing on the wrong things. And this is, for us, just good news. It's just helping our quest."

[CjC]

One thing I will caveat my comment with is Red Bull seem to carry a shade more rear downforce than McLaren currently which would make them appear to be stronger in those circumstances.

I personally think that’s what happened in Imola, which allowed Verstappen to have his commanding win- more rear DF, faster in the high speed corners, more DF meant he had less slip in those high speed corners which kept his deg under control.
I’m fully confident in McLaren- they certainly know more than me but they have only ran a spoon rear wing of some sort all season so far and I can’t help but feel a little more rear DF would change the picture slightly.

I’ve said before, I’m really looking forward to see the competitive picture when the full DF rear wings go on- I might be disappointed with the perforce when they do but that’s F1. As for Monaco- any driver from Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes or Ferrari can win that race because it’s so unique.

Redbull had ~7-8 kph higher top speed than Mclaren in Q & hence probably in the race as well (unless Max went ridiculously +4 +5 on his front flaps). How does that get explained if RB21 had more rear DF ?

I believe the Red Bull straight line speed advantage was only on place in the lap- everywhere else they had the same speed so it was suggested different deployment. It was something data analysis posted on Instagram.

[Emag]

One thing I will caveat my comment with is Red Bull seem to carry a shade more rear downforce than McLaren currently which would make them appear to be stronger in those circumstances.

I personally think that’s what happened in Imola, which allowed Verstappen to have his commanding win- more rear DF, faster in the high speed corners, more DF meant he had less slip in those high speed corners which kept his deg under control.
I’m fully confident in McLaren- they certainly know more than me but they have only ran a spoon rear wing of some sort all season so far and I can’t help but feel a little more rear DF would change the picture slightly.

I’ve said before, I’m really looking forward to see the competitive picture when the full DF rear wings go on- I might be disappointed with the perforce when they do but that’s F1. As for Monaco- any driver from Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes or Ferrari can win that race because it’s so unique.

Redbull had ~7-8 kph higher top speed than Mclaren in Q & hence probably in the race as well (unless Max went ridiculously +4 +5 on his front flaps). How does that get explained if RB21 had more rear DF ?

Gap was reduced to 2-3 kmh in the race. It was bigger in quali because McLaren’s DRS is weaker. It was still worth around 0.05s of “free” laptime for RedBull in the main straight.

[mwillems]

One thing I will caveat my comment with is Red Bull seem to carry a shade more rear downforce than McLaren currently which would make them appear to be stronger in those circumstances.

I personally think that’s what happened in Imola, which allowed Verstappen to have his commanding win- more rear DF, faster in the high speed corners, more DF meant he had less slip in those high speed corners which kept his deg under control.
I’m fully confident in McLaren- they certainly know more than me but they have only ran a spoon rear wing of some sort all season so far and I can’t help but feel a little more rear DF would change the picture slightly.

I’ve said before, I’m really looking forward to see the competitive picture when the full DF rear wings go on- I might be disappointed with the perforce when they do but that’s F1. As for Monaco- any driver from Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes or Ferrari can win that race because it’s so unique.

Redbull had ~7-8 kph higher top speed than Mclaren in Q & hence probably in the race as well (unless Max went ridiculously +4 +5 on his front flaps). How does that get explained if RB21 had more rear DF ?

Because the Mclaren is slower for reasons other than the rear wing.

The supposition is the brake ducts, everyone looks to that as the silver bullet, whereas it is increasingly becoming apparent that it isn't, but they may well be causing more drag.

As might be the internal cooling solution. Other than that, the aero itself may well be creating some drag inducing effects that somehow improve downforce for a net gain.

Who knows, but I don't think we are slow because of the amount of wing we are using.

[CjC]

One thing I will caveat my comment with is Red Bull seem to carry a shade more rear downforce than McLaren currently which would make them appear to be stronger in those circumstances.

I personally think that’s what happened in Imola, which allowed Verstappen to have his commanding win- more rear DF, faster in the high speed corners, more DF meant he had less slip in those high speed corners which kept his deg under control.
I’m fully confident in McLaren- they certainly know more than me but they have only ran a spoon rear wing of some sort all season so far and I can’t help but feel a little more rear DF would change the picture slightly.

I’ve said before, I’m really looking forward to see the competitive picture when the full DF rear wings go on- I might be disappointed with the perforce when they do but that’s F1. As for Monaco- any driver from Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes or Ferrari can win that race because it’s so unique.

Redbull had ~7-8 kph higher top speed than Mclaren in Q & hence probably in the race as well (unless Max went ridiculously +4 +5 on his front flaps). How does that get explained if RB21 had more rear DF ?

I believe the Red Bull straight line speed advantage was only on place in the lap- everywhere else they had the same speed so it was suggested different deployment. It was something data analysis posted on Instagram.

Sorry my bad, they too suggest Red Bull had less aero load than McLaren.



It’s something Mark Hughes said today that got me thinking but my thoughts are misplaced

[CjC]

PhilipM is online… he’s going to tell us that Mclaren have a 0.75 worth of second upgrade in the vinyl wrap room ready for Spain

[f1isgood]

I don't want to be that person, but Suzuka was decided after Turn 1. Oscar wasn't significantly quicker to pass Lando. There was no guarantee that he'd pass Max either. Red Bull also ran a really light rear wing there and with basically no passing zones, nothing would have changed.

I think McLaren did the right thing in both races in any case. In Suzuka if they let Piastri attack Max and then he failed, they'd have to have him swap around with Lando later. That would only lead to acrimony between the drivers, if there already isn't.

Yesterday Piastri's tires were not great relative to Max, and they committed to a two stop. In the end, Lando also wouldn't have had pace to pass Max. I thought Lando profited from a bit of luck in getting that P2 and in principle McLaren could have told him to hold position as without such a big tire delta, I don't see Lando pass Oscar either, regardless of if the latter is quicker than Max or not.

In any case, all these issues are because McLaren don't know who's their number one driver. If they can decide on that, and not race for the sake of whatever, they'd probably get a bigger shot at the WDC anyways, which is theirs to lose but it'll be smoother as no one's going to get the WCC bar Macca this year.

It wasn't luck that Oscar was chewing through his tyres, Lando was just much better in the race. In reality he was really unlucky to pit just before the VSC which gifted Max a cheap pit stop.

Yes. But in the context of the race, it changed nothing. He wasn't fast enough to catch VER and pass him.

And I do see a trend that AR3 pointed out multiple times -- PIA loses time towards end of the stint relative to NOR.

NOR is the real benchmark for McL race pace. Not PIA.

[PhillipM]

PhilipM is online… he’s going to tell us that Mclaren have a 0.75 worth of second upgrade in the vinyl wrap room ready for Spain

No, he is going to say Mclaren are happily spending time refining what they do have though, some of the bigger parts for what was (over winter anyway) going to be the first main package aren't even in production as far as I've heard - which is surprising for a european triple header. They want to be absolutely sure anything that goes on the car is 110% an upgrade and no issues - doesn't make sense to risk anything when you have the speed already.

[CjC]

PhilipM is online… he’s going to tell us that Mclaren have a 0.75 worth of second upgrade in the vinyl wrap room ready for Spain

No, he is going to say Mclaren are happily spending time refining what they do have though, some of the bigger parts for what was (over winter anyway) going to be the first main package aren't even in production as far as I've heard - which is surprising for a european triple header. They want to be absolutely sure anything that goes on the car is 110% an upgrade and no issues - doesn't make sense to risk anything when you have the speed already.

Ah, that’s slightly disappointing as I thought we’d see something at Spain and also with Stella suggesting in Imola the need to upgrade.

I’ve always knew they wouldn’t panic rush an upgrade with such a comfy gap in the WCC but I thought after seeing Max win the way he did in Imola they might have decided to pull the tigger to aid their quest for the WDC.

Do you know what changes they need to implement on the front wing for the new load test?

[chrisc90]

Supposedly McLaren aren’t involved in the latest TDs

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/fia- ... en-battle/

Would you expect them to say anything different??

"At all times, the FIA has declared it is satisfied with what McLaren is doing with sources suggesting that its concept is "clever." This means that it was running at Imola exactly the same way as before.

McLaren team boss Andrea Stella has repeatedly suggested that rivals are looking in the wrong areas when it comes to pointing fingers at what his squad is doing - with it already having faced suspicions over flexi wings, water in tyres and mini-DRS.

Speaking at Imola last weekend, Stella said: "For us, it's good news when our rivals get their focus – rather than on themselves – onto some of the aspects that allegedly are present in our car, and that effectively are not even present.

"And certainly, even if they were – let's say, flexi-wings like a front wing deflection, like everyone else – it has nothing to do with the reason why McLaren is very competitive.

"So, I hope that in the future there will be more of these kinds of sagas because it means that our rivals keep focusing on the wrong things. And this is, for us, just good news. It's just helping our quest."

It doesn’t mean it’s the same. It means that the car passes the checks they did after the race. Whether they found something suspect, which they may/may not have done, is a different question. To disqualify a team, means there has to be a clear cut breaking of the rules. You can’t disqualify a team for using a grey area of the rules, but you can close the loophole/grey area with the help of a mid season technical directive. Which effectively means that the FIA can change the rules ‘on the fly’ at at time through the season.

I did read somewhere, that maybe the TD was put in place after a team queried something with the FIA. Now that goes back to the earlier point that if you believe that something was being used, and is a grey area of the rules, and it would add performance to your car, then it’s odd you would go ask the FIA, “hey, we found this grey area in the rules, by using XYZ material, which will gain us laptime, can we do it?”
Teams would go out the way to develop the idea first and use it to their advantage then wait for it to be 1) found out by others and 2) wait for it to be clamped down by the FIA.

Stella isn’t exactly going to stand infront the world and say, “hey, we were doing this, the FIA have seen it, they don’t like it, but we going to keep doing it anyhow”. The Baku mini drs was a perfect example. Supposedly they didn’t have to change any parts, but it was clear as day to anyone watching the clips exactly what was happening and what the FIA clamped down on.
All the “it’s hidden away, and teams are barking up the wrong tree wasting resources” is complete PR spin. These teams on the grid aren’t stupid, and they know how/why things are done a LOT more than what’s ever let out into public. Stella isn’t going to openly say that “look teams, our silver bullet comes from the brake cooling, I suggest you look down that route to how to make upgrades to your car”. That’s helping the competition, he’s trying to throw them off by skirting around the topic of interest claiming there is nothing there, when there likely is.

You just wouldn’t say it the way he does.

[Henri]

https://x.com/F1GuyDan/status/1924531009954943452 thats why redbull seemed to be faster than McLaren last race

[AR3-GP]

Even the temperature factor that was considered the main culprit behind the dominance in Miami, can't actually be considered a stable data point, because track temp was higher in Imola and that did nothing. Track temps in Miami were also the same as they were in Jeddah but RedBull was faster there. McLaren's advantage doesn't seem to be dictated by them at all. They probably have the most balanced package that works really well across different tracks and the gap increases or decreases depending on how much competitors can get out of their car in a given weekend.

I feel like the temp thing may well work in extremes, but time will tell. Let's see what happens in more extreme temps with cold and wet or with high heat.

Piastri said during the race that deg seemed higher than FP2. We don’t know what Mclaren changed in the setup but we do know that it was much warmer on Sunday than it was on Friday.

Piastri at least seemed to be more sensitive on the hotter track, but it makes sense that he would be more susceptible if prior races are scrutinized.

[mwillems]

Would you expect them to say anything different??

"At all times, the FIA has declared it is satisfied with what McLaren is doing with sources suggesting that its concept is "clever." This means that it was running at Imola exactly the same way as before.

McLaren team boss Andrea Stella has repeatedly suggested that rivals are looking in the wrong areas when it comes to pointing fingers at what his squad is doing - with it already having faced suspicions over flexi wings, water in tyres and mini-DRS.

Speaking at Imola last weekend, Stella said: "For us, it's good news when our rivals get their focus – rather than on themselves – onto some of the aspects that allegedly are present in our car, and that effectively are not even present.

"And certainly, even if they were – let's say, flexi-wings like a front wing deflection, like everyone else – it has nothing to do with the reason why McLaren is very competitive.

"So, I hope that in the future there will be more of these kinds of sagas because it means that our rivals keep focusing on the wrong things. And this is, for us, just good news. It's just helping our quest."

It doesn’t mean it’s the same. It means that the car passes the checks they did after the race. Whether they found something suspect, which they may/may not have done, is a different question. To disqualify a team, means there has to be a clear cut breaking of the rules. You can’t disqualify a team for using a grey area of the rules, but you can close the loophole/grey area with the help of a mid season technical directive. Which effectively means that the FIA can change the rules ‘on the fly’ at at time through the season.

I did read somewhere, that maybe the TD was put in place after a team queried something with the FIA. Now that goes back to the earlier point that if you believe that something was being used, and is a grey area of the rules, and it would add performance to your car, then it’s odd you would go ask the FIA, “hey, we found this grey area in the rules, by using XYZ material, which will gain us laptime, can we do it?”
Teams would go out the way to develop the idea first and use it to their advantage then wait for it to be 1) found out by others and 2) wait for it to be clamped down by the FIA.

Stella isn’t exactly going to stand infront the world and say, “hey, we were doing this, the FIA have seen it, they don’t like it, but we going to keep doing it anyhow”. The Baku mini drs was a perfect example. Supposedly they didn’t have to change any parts, but it was clear as day to anyone watching the clips exactly what was happening and what the FIA clamped down on.
All the “it’s hidden away, and teams are barking up the wrong tree wasting resources” is complete PR spin. These teams on the grid aren’t stupid, and they know how/why things are done a LOT more than what’s ever let out into public. Stella isn’t going to openly say that “look teams, our silver bullet comes from the brake cooling, I suggest you look down that route to how to make upgrades to your car”. That’s helping the competition, he’s trying to throw them off by skirting around the topic of interest claiming there is nothing there, when there likely is.

You just wouldn’t say it the way he does.

I really only printed it because on the one hand the article talks up the TD and then immediately dispels it, this article is pretty much just clickbait talking to both sets of fans.