2025 McLaren F1 Team

[Lazy]

I mean, similar story. Norris is not new to being on pole. Even moreso than in 2024, Mclaren have the fastest car on the grid - getting pole by a mere tenth against a clear slower car shouldn't be considered some massive rebuttal of any criticisms.

At the same time, nobody who watched 2023/2024 should be surprised that Norris can do well. Any 'critics' saying otherwise seem like they aren't worth listening to in the first place. Of course he's a good driver. And unless you believe Piastri is the next Hamilton/Schumacher or whatever, then of course you're going to accept that Norris will be plenty competitive against Piastri at times.

I think most of the criticism has come from the fact that Mclaren has a clearly superior car in basically every condition and every track, and other drivers(largely Max, let's be real) have stepped up and still made things closer or even won when Mclaren probably should be running away with things more than they have. Which is something of a continuation where Mclaren/Norris lost the WDC last year despite having the best car for the large majority of the season.

Norris has way more to do to prove doubters wrong. He needs to stamp his authority on this WDC, not just scrape by wins against inferior cars.

You have no evidence for these claims, you just want them to be the case to suit your bias. The Ferrari was very close if not quicker this weekend. There is no evidence that the McLaren was the "clear fastest car" at this circuit.
The Mclaren started last years as very nearly the slowest, the only evidence you have for it being the best was how fast Norris was driving it.

Leclerc being exceptional here was the only reason the Ferrari ever looked to have a real chance. But it was clear that in the end, when Q3 rolled around and everybody showed everything they had, the Mclaren was still quicker. Norris who didn't even have that good a lap still got pole by a tenth. Norris effortlessly putting in fastest lap on the last lap of the race is further proof. Mclaren was also likely fastest here last year and only got foiled by again, the same reason - Leclerc punching above his weight. Not to say the Ferrari wasn't more competitive than usual, just still wasn't quite on equal terms with Mclaren.

And it's hilarious for you to question my claims when you say something objectively nonsense in that Mclaren started last year as 'nearly the slowest'. No, they were still up near the front, just right behind Ferrari(heck, Mclaren were even faster than Ferrari in China before the Imola update). If you're willing to distort reality that much, I'm not surprised you're not going to accept anything I say.

There's no doubt that McLaren have the race pace but Q has been very different and it was pretty clear that Ferrari were on a par in Q at Monaco. I have seen very little evidence of Leclerc's godlike abilities over the years and it looks like he got beaten fair and square for Pole.

[AR3-GP]

What happened to Piastri last year in Spain? Was there a difference in car spec?

[mwillems]

Did you think he was never gonna win another race, even with the clear fastest car on the grid? :/

specifically referring to his Q3 runs. Which have not been good enough to do justice to the car, since Australia.

I mean, similar story. Norris is not new to being on pole. Even moreso than in 2024, Mclaren have the fastest car on the grid - getting pole by a mere tenth against a clear slower car shouldn't be considered some massive rebuttal of any criticisms.

At the same time, nobody who watched 2023/2024 should be surprised that Norris can do well. Any 'critics' saying otherwise seem like they aren't worth listening to in the first place. Of course he's a good driver. And unless you believe Piastri is the next Hamilton/Schumacher or whatever, then of course you're going to accept that Norris will be plenty competitive against Piastri at times.

I think most of the criticism has come from the fact that Mclaren has a clearly superior car in basically every condition and every track, and other drivers(largely Max, let's be real) have stepped up and still made things closer or even won when Mclaren probably should be running away with things more than they have. Which is something of a continuation where Mclaren/Norris lost the WDC last year despite having the best car for the large majority of the season.

Norris has way more to do to prove doubters wrong. He needs to stamp his authority on this WDC, not just scrape by wins against inferior cars.

I've seen variations of this many times, and it clearly seems to rely on the basis that faster on Sunday = faster on Saturday, which is not true with this car. It excels in race conditions, and dominates in some very specific race conditions. It is fast but beatable on a Saturday. You can look at every driver and compare them to Max, as I suspect you do, and offer a suggestion that if Max could drive it faster then the other drivers are not good enough. But it's not reasonable. He's one of the best ever. Our drivers are very good, a step below Max, but this doesn't mean that the cars tricky behaviour is on the drivers. The car has Saturday afternoon flaws which can cause issues for us getting the maximum from the cars on Sunday.

It's easy for some folks to move past those facts, but any opinion that avoids them just to make a big statement isn't really trying to be honest or reflective of reality.

But this is your choice, I don't begrudge you taking a view that is blinkered or biased, but you're coming to the wrong place to launder the same opinions again, you'll just get the same response.

[venkyhere]

Pages and pages debating whether McLaren is the fastest Saturday car or not, w.r.t the Ferrari. Earlier it was with Redbull. Thankfully no debates on which is the fastest Sunday car. I don't understand this "our drivers have to really bring their absolute skill out on the Saturday to tame the car". That's what every leading pack team's driver has to do on a Saturday.

What everyone seems to forget, is that ANY fast car, which is the class of the field, is going to be "edgy" in lowest fuel, highest energy deployment mode, because that's when the drivetrain torque is maxed, when the aero downforce is maxed, which translates to ultra sensitivity to steering and pedal inputs..

Neither is maxed on a Sunday and the sensitivities are reduced, the car becomes "less edgy". This is true of any championship winning car, because that's how a car that can operate on "the limits" of what's possible from a regulation set will eventually become, especially in an era when engine power has been normalised over two consecutive regulation sets.

What did the fans expect ? A "benign" fastest car ? Making it benign would create a racing bull or an aston martin, with same engines.

Now please continue the arguments.

[avantman]

What happened to Piastri last year in Spain? Was there a difference in car spec?

He made big mistakes on both runs in Q3, qualified 10th and stuck in traffic during the race. And yes, he is not Norris (was not last year anyway) to make the best of it with tire management and so on.

[Emag]

What happened to Piastri last year in Spain? Was there a difference in car spec?

Nothing, he was just not as good as Lando.

[mwillems]

Pages and pages debating whether McLaren is the fastest Saturday car or not, w.r.t the Ferrari. Earlier it was with Redbull. Thankfully no debates on which is the fastest Sunday car. I don't understand this "our drivers have to really bring their absolute skill out on the Saturday to tame the car". That's what every leading pack team's driver has to do on a Saturday.

What everyone seems to forget, is that ANY fast car, which is the class of the field, is going to be "edgy" in lowest fuel, highest energy deployment mode, because that's when the drivetrain torque is maxed, when the aero downforce is maxed, which translates to ultra sensitivity to steering and pedal inputs..

Neither is maxed on a Sunday and the sensitivities are reduced, the car becomes "less edgy". This is true of any championship winning car, because that's how a car that can operate on "the limits" of what's possible from a regulation set will eventually become, especially in an era when engine power has been normalised over two consecutive regulation sets.

What did the fans expect ? A "benign" fastest car ? Making it benign would create a racing bull or an aston martin, with same engines.

Now please continue the arguments.

I'm not forgetting anything, and your comments about what my expectations are appear to have been plucked from thin air. But I do know that difficult and tricky are not binary concepts as the post seems to base itself on, as written. The cars behave differently on the edge. Some give you a feeling of the edge or of loss of grip coming. Some might not but are consistent in how they can be pushed. Both drivers and the team had stated that it can give you no warning and that it is inconsistent in where it can be pushed.

You could literally apply your reasoning to any car, ignore any traits and just say, make it go fast, but that isn't how racing works. You are welcome to ignore that and please, continue arguing.

[Emag]

Pages and pages debating whether McLaren is the fastest Saturday car or not, w.r.t the Ferrari. Earlier it was with Redbull. Thankfully no debates on which is the fastest Sunday car. I don't understand this "our drivers have to really bring their absolute skill out on the Saturday to tame the car". That's what every leading pack team's driver has to do on a Saturday.

What everyone seems to forget, is that ANY fast car, which is the class of the field, is going to be "edgy" in lowest fuel, highest energy deployment mode, because that's when the drivetrain torque is maxed, when the aero downforce is maxed, which translates to ultra sensitivity to steering and pedal inputs..

Neither is maxed on a Sunday and the sensitivities are reduced, the car becomes "less edgy". This is true of any championship winning car, because that's how a car that can operate on "the limits" of what's possible from a regulation set will eventually become, especially in an era when engine power has been normalised over two consecutive regulation sets.

What did the fans expect ? A "benign" fastest car ? Making it benign would create a racing bull or an aston martin, with same engines.

Now please continue the arguments.

Well, the W11 didn’t struggle to dominate while being one of the most benign cars to drive. It just did whatever the drivers asked, with barely a twitch. But comparing it directly to the current generation isn't quite fair, so I’ll let that go. These ground effect cars are edgy by nature, especially in low-fuel, high-energy deployment setups. That has been a trend across the grid since 2022, and the entire field has had to adjust.

However, what’s important to note with McLaren this year is that both drivers have repeatedly mentioned the car becoming unpredictable in qualifying. When both of them, and especially Norris who has historically been a strong qualifier, are saying the same thing, it’s probably not just a "skill issue." It’s more likely that the MCL39, while clearly fast, becomes particularly sensitive when pushed to its absolute limits.

And it's not like it doesn't make sense. With ground effect being so dependent on maintaining a tight operating window, even a small deviation, like a gust of wind, a change in track temperature, or a kerb strike, can suddenly rob the car of grip. So yes, all fast cars are edgy at the limit. But if McLaren’s package has a very high performance ceiling that becomes harder to access consistently, it’s only natural to see some qualifying inconsistency. If you try something on one lap and it works, but then the next time the car snaps on you for no clear reason, it kills confidence. You're less likely to go for that same limit again, even if it's the quicker way, just because you can't trust how the car will respond.

Norris has struggled more with this, which is telling. For all the criticism he gets about inconsistency or being error-prone, the one thing he has always excelled at is qualifying pace.

And even if you look at Oscar, he's also had trouble consistently putting together his best sectors in Q3 the way drivers from some other teams are able to do (as did McLaren drivers last year as well).

It starts to feel like an agenda when both drivers and the team are pointing to the same issue, yet people ignore that entirely and just chalk it up to driver weakness. Could Leclerc or Verstappen handle it better? Maybe. But nobody knows that for sure, and it’s always easier to say you would do better when you are not the one behind the wheel.

[BMMR61]

Guys, I like many of you, are sick of countering the "McLaren is so dominant that it's only held back by drivers who aren't much good" type or arguments. As I pointed out yesterday, all the key McLaren personnel are consistent in their evaluation of the traits, which in turn is consistent with observations. Should be beyond doubt so I'm bailing out, I like the MCL39, Lando, and Oscar and none are beyond criticism, and all are doing fine.

The hysteria around McLaren's often incredible race pace advantage is nicely evaluated by Gary Anderson at The Race today. https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/gary ... n-thought/

Great pictures and overlays, diagrams for those technically minded enough to persevere. Gary's opinion -

"1. The focus on keeping the brake temperature from transferring to the rear rims.
2. The all-new 2025 cooling system Andrea Stella spoke of in Monaco, allowing McLaren to close off more of the car's bodywork for aerodynamic benefit, reducing drag and reducing the impact of hot air disturbing the rear wing and diffuser.
3. Its high percentage of front anti-dive will support the car better under braking.
4. The high percentage of rear anti-lift will keep the rear of the car lower under braking.
5. The percentage of rear pro-squat will allow the car to sit down, giving better traction.
6. The extra rear camber change will mean at higher ride heights, where traction is critical, McLaren will have a larger contact patch without compromising lower ride heights where tyre stability improves driver confidence.

All of this will be even more beneficial when you have high ambient and track temperatures, but in reality it should be better for most circuits."

[ringo]

Does the Mcl39 use the water intercoolers like the works team?

As it relates the edgyness in qualifying, i believe it's not the car. It is the fact that the two drivers have each other to beat. They are pushing harder than any other drivers in tge field because they have a championship to decide between the both of them.
Max wont have this problem and never had. Maybe in 2021 when fighting Mercedes.
Lewis didnt have it so much apart from Nico, but he knew he could beat Nico in the races, and he already had a few championships.
Oscar and Lando are fighting for their first.
Put Stroll in the 2nd McLaren and qualifying will be more relaxed for Lando or Oscar.

[Lazy]

Did you think he was never gonna win another race, even with the clear fastest car on the grid? :/

specifically referring to his Q3 runs. Which have not been good enough to do justice to the car, since Australia.

I mean, similar story. Norris is not new to being on pole. Even moreso than in 2024, Mclaren have the fastest car on the grid - getting pole by a mere tenth against a clear slower car shouldn't be considered some massive rebuttal of any criticisms.

At the same time, nobody who watched 2023/2024 should be surprised that Norris can do well. Any 'critics' saying otherwise seem like they aren't worth listening to in the first place. Of course he's a good driver. And unless you believe Piastri is the next Hamilton/Schumacher or whatever, then of course you're going to accept that Norris will be plenty competitive against Piastri at times.

I think most of the criticism has come from the fact that Mclaren has a clearly superior car in basically every condition and every track, and other drivers(largely Max, let's be real) have stepped up and still made things closer or even won when Mclaren probably should be running away with things more than they have. Which is something of a continuation where Mclaren/Norris lost the WDC last year despite having the best car for the large majority of the season.

Norris has way more to do to prove doubters wrong. He needs to stamp his authority on this WDC, not just scrape by wins against inferior cars.

Also, your "mere tenth" is the biggest margin of a Pole so far this season.

[venkyhere]

Does the Mcl39 use the water intercoolers like the works team?

AFAIK only Honda uses air-to-air ICs for charge air, Mercedes and Ferrari engines use water-to-air for the same. This is 'one of the' reasons why the Redbull/RacingBull engine-cover/sidepod 'bulk' is bigger than the others.

[mwillems]

I think that may be part of the explanation for one of our drivers — I won’t argue against that. Oscar has struggled less with this particular trait, even though he’s acknowledged it himself, and he’s generally been solid on Saturdays. Last year, he was quite close to Lando in qualifying, and if we generously assume that Oscar hasn’t improved at all since then, Lando might be able to extract an extra 0.05 to 0.1 seconds in Q3 — consistent with the gaps we saw in 2023.

That said, even though the margins were small last year, Lando didn’t seem to face the same issue on Saturdays. A 0.05-second advantage is still a very different — and more beatable picture than what we’re seeing in race performance. Personally, I do think Oscar has made progress, so even if one wants to critique Lando, I don’t believe there’s a huge amount of untapped time left. But that’s just my opinion.

What’s been more disappointing to me is how Lando has struggled to adapt to this car — not so much in pace, but in how he’s approached finding the limit, which at times hasn’t been the most sensible.

[Farnborough]

A good analysis here of the Q3 laps



Obvious here of three quite different "routes" to almost the same time.

Lando with particular confidence in technical/latent grip @ Rasscasse and final corner to extract just a little extra within the tight regimen this chassis performance is located. The little opposite lock flick to catch the spike in tyre grip resonance as it landed from the swimming pool exit curb illustration of banging up against that narrow definition of grip the chassis is willing to tolerate.

Oscar, clearly understands what it needs but recognition of where he overstepped the chassis "will" to cooperate at some points, taking him slightly off line to allow clean flow of torque application against the other two.

Charles, making use of a more rounded "squelch" in chassis focus and dynamic presentation, to really lean on softer response margins in generating speed through very different envelope in comparison to McL.

The track circumstances here really came to that, currently existing, Ferrari trait. Both drivers being comfortable with the consistency and confidence that brings to the car when close to barriers.

Notably. Both Lando & Charles beat BOTH of their team mates here. Excellent acceptance of the task they were facing coming into this race weekend. I like watching this stuff here, displayed in close quarters with very good camera coverage to see it played out. One of the highlights of Monaco weekend certainly.

Lando much more surgical than Oscar in application here, fully recognised the tight constraints the chassis and setup needed. Oscar a little more brutal, understanding what it needs but just missing some finesse in places, hefty torque application out of Rascasse and Ste Devote a spectacular and welcome visual for us spectators A great weekend for the whole team really.

[Space-heat]

So it's either on the car or fully validated and ready to go onto the car. If the changes are just making the wing more rigid, they didn't need to declare it so it could have been tested a while ago. Does anyone remember McLaren using flowviz on the front wing/brakes in recent races?

Won't it be hilarious if 9 teams bring a new front wing this weekend and only McLaren don't?

Teams don't need to declare a new FW if the geometry doesn't change.

Ferrari introduced their flexi wing at COTA last year. However, it wasn't included in the FIA document, as the change only involved adjusting the orientation of the carbon fibre to allow for more deformation, while the wing's geometry remained the same as the previous version.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... ssions.pdf