Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

[mzso]

It's the sort of thing that if it's all you're hearing for two days straight, then I can see how you just adjust to that as 'normal' and maybe even good(it's still a 1000hp race car engine, after all).

This just shows utterly pointless is to obsess about the sound.

[vorticism]

Don't have anything technical to add, but yeah, I prefer the less loud, more complex sounds of the current cars when going to a grueling hot race I don't need to have my eardrums scream too, for a relatively uninteresting V8 drone (V10 actually was way to much for me last time I heard it in the Torro Rosso's in 2006 at Hockenheim, no thank you, piercing loud but not very interesting to hear.)

You can have both. Consider how the 1.6 hybrid turbos were curated. A fuel flow curve was mandated, which means things like boost curves could also be used to curate an end product. Conceivably you could reduce displacement, specify a low boost turbocharger, and still force an operating range around 20k RPM, +/- 2k. You gain a smaller piston with less mass from the displacement loss (enabling high revs), and then gain some back with the strengthening it will need to survive light boost. Some might say that's too fake, but it's as fake as the current regs.

Or, much simpler: put a small muffler in the exhaust. This has been done in various sportscar/endurance classes.

It's the sort of thing that if it's all you're hearing for two days straight, then I can see how you just adjust to that as 'normal' and maybe even good(it's still a 1000hp race car engine, after all).

This just shows utterly pointless is to obsess about the sound.

Yet you're obsessing ITT over maintaining the current sound. The FIA may have been somewhat obsessed with sound themselves because they specified a fuel flow peak peak around 10.5 -12k RPM back in 2013 or so. Not sure if that was totally an aesthetic compromise, or if they found an ideal balance there with cylinder pressure & firing frequency.

[ENGINE TUNER]

They shouldn't have banned the mguh and they should have added a front axle mguk. The hybrid electric components is not what has made the cars heavy, it has actually made the car lighter, it is the safety equipment and most of all.the heavy tires and wheels which have drastically increased the mass since 2013.

I have strong doubts about this. The cars are just too large. You material to make them this large and withstand all the forces they get.

The cars are not large because of hybrid, the 2014 cars had the same footprint as the 2013 cars, smaller actually. The cars got wider in 2017, for performance reasons. Then they got longer after 2017, also for performance reasons. They got smaller in 2022, while still using the same turbo hybrid power units from 2014. The cars are big and heavy because of the safety features and the heavier than ever tire/wheel combo.

[Tommy Cookers]

race engines have had one bank exhausting via a turbocharger and the other bank exhausting directly to atmosphere

[ENGINE TUNER]

Don't have anything technical to add, but yeah, I prefer the less loud, more complex sounds of the current cars when going to a grueling hot race I don't need to have my eardrums scream too, for a relatively uninteresting V8 drone (V10 actually was way to much for me last time I heard it in the Torro Rosso's in 2006 at Hockenheim, no thank you, piercing loud but not very interesting to hear.)

You can have both. Consider how the 1.6 hybrid turbos were curated. A fuel flow curve was mandated, which means things like boost curves could also be used to curate an end product. Conceivably you could reduce displacement, specify a low boost turbocharger, and still force an operating range around 20k RPM, +/- 2k. You gain a smaller piston with less mass from the displacement loss (enabling high revs), and then gain some back with the strengthening it will need to survive light boost. Some might say that's too fake, but it's as fake as the current regs.

Or, much simpler: put a small muffler in the exhaust. This has been done in various sportscar/endurance classes.

It's the sort of thing that if it's all you're hearing for two days straight, then I can see how you just adjust to that as 'normal' and maybe even good(it's still a 1000hp race car engine, after all).

This just shows utterly pointless is to obsess about the sound.

Yet you're obsessing ITT over maintaining the current sound. The FIA may have been somewhat obsessed with sound themselves because they specified a fuel flow peak peak around 10.5 -12k RPM back in 2013 or so. Not sure if that was totally an aesthetic compromise, or if they found an ideal balance there with cylinder pressure & firing frequency.

The current fuel is mostly because of the limitations of direct injection, it just can't keep up above 15k rpm or so. Port injection is far less efficient.

[mzso]

Yet you're obsessing ITT over maintaining the current sound. The FIA may have been somewhat obsessed with sound themselves because they specified a fuel flow peak peak around 10.5 -12k RPM back in 2013 or so. Not sure if that was totally an aesthetic compromise, or if they found an ideal balance there with cylinder pressure & firing frequency.

Completely baseless accusation. I'm not interested in the current sound, or sound in general. I would much prefer interesting technology. A favor full EVs, because electric motors are just plain superior in all regards (energy storage is a different story). But that's not going to happen. Also rotary ICE would be interesting, also not going to happen. After these, making engines the smallest and lightest with plain piston tech, to aid downsizing the cars. I really dislike the current pick-up truck proportions and the weight. It inhibits good racing.

[mzso]

They shouldn't have banned the mguh and they should have added a front axle mguk. The hybrid electric components is not what has made the cars heavy, it has actually made the car lighter, it is the safety equipment and most of all.the heavy tires and wheels which have drastically increased the mass since 2013.

I have strong doubts about this. The cars are just too large. You need material to make them this large and withstand all the forces they get.

The cars are not large because of hybrid, the 2014 cars had the same footprint as the 2013 cars, smaller actually. The cars got wider in 2017, for performance reasons. Then they got longer after 2017, also for performance reasons. They got smaller in 2022, while still using the same turbo hybrid power units from 2014. The cars are big and heavy because of the safety features and the heavier than ever tire/wheel combo.

2014 cars were already heavy. Anyway, I mainly doubt that the tires and wheels "most of all" to blame for the large weight. They add a tiny amount.
And I don't think that the vague "safety features" are mainly the cause either. The cars had a lot of safety features for a long while.
And they for sure don't need to be large because of safety features.

I think they're mainly heavy because they are large, you need more material for longer more slender cars to be strong enough. And they are large because of aero reasons. Also a factor is the PUs having a minimum weight and material restrictions. (And yes, also battery and electric motor weight)

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Have to say, I'm currently listening to a load of LMP cars going past (not sure which - I think it's an open test day for various customers) and the variety of exhaust notes is fantastic.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be in favour of them opening up the PU regs to allow different PU layouts.

Not sure how they'd regulate to keep them in the same of ballpark performance-wise, but that's for people smarter than me.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I have strong doubts about this. The cars are just too large. You need material to make them this large and withstand all the forces they get.

The cars are not large because of hybrid, the 2014 cars had the same footprint as the 2013 cars, smaller actually. The cars got wider in 2017, for performance reasons. Then they got longer after 2017, also for performance reasons. They got smaller in 2022, while still using the same turbo hybrid power units from 2014. The cars are big and heavy because of the safety features and the heavier than ever tire/wheel combo.

2014 cars were already heavy. Anyway, I mainly doubt that the tires and wheels "most of all" to blame for the large weight. They add a tiny amount.
And I don't think that the vague "safety features" are mainly the cause either. The cars had a lot of safety features for a long while.
And they for sure don't need to be large because of safety features.

I think they're mainly heavy because they are large, you need more material for longer more slender cars to be strong enough. And they are large because of aero reasons. Also a factor is the PUs having a minimum weight and material restrictions. (And yes, also battery and electric motor weight)

As I have explained many times on these boards, the 18in tire/wheel combination is 3x the mass of the 2010 Bridgestone tire/wheel combo. The front tires are so heavy now that the FIA has mandated that teams double the front wheel tethers. Heavier tires and wheels require heavier brakes, heavier hub/axles, inboard and outbound suspension components and stronger/heavier suspension mounting points. The heavier tire/wheel combo has been the greatest mass increase since 2013.

Yes the dry mass of the 2013 was less than the 2014 car by about 40kg(tires mass increase not included) but because the 2014 turbo hybrids used and carried so much less fuel(and thus required a smaller fuel tank) the 2014 cars had less mass on the start grid than the 2013 cars. This is all of course before the addition of the halo and the required strengthening of its mounting points. Most people don't realize that the energy store did not change much in mass or volume from 2013 kers to 2014 turbo hybrid, same 25kg maximum and most teams have it down to the 20kg minimum. The mguk is 7kg, the mguh is 5kg.

Being large is not why they are heavy because most of the "largeness" is empty space between the clutch and rear axles, which is why it was easy for the teams to lower the wheelbase by 20cm in 2022 and then again another 20 cm for 2026 even while making the cars slightly narrower. It is empty space like a van which can be larger but lighter than an suv filled with seating etc. There is almost no mass between clutch, which is ahead of where the side pods end and the rear axles and the transmissions have been made unnecessarily long, but still have minimal mass.

Finally, the turbo power unit, plus the mass of fuel and fuel tank and coolers is less than it was for the 2.4Lv8s plus kers. And they require much less drag inducing cooling.

[Chuckjr]

I've also heard them on days with multiple different age F1 cars running.

The older cars are louder, yes. They are so loud that trackside staff need ear protection and in headphones to use radios. Sure that's a type of character, but is it the best? Purely a matter of taste.

The newer cars are still so loud as to stop conversations while they pass, but not so loud as to risk damage to hearing. Trackside Comms also a lot easier.

And the big question, does the average fan care? Or do they just want good racing regardless of which loud PU is in the back?

My money is on the latter.

And all evidence so far suggests that the manufacturers want modern, more advanced PU as well.

I've already made the argument that manufacturers want these duller, more 'advanced' powertrains, so we dont need to go there. I get that part of it and why it's unlikely to ever change.

But I dont think there's any real denying how F1 has lost something special. The older car engines weren't just louder, they had real character as well. The banshee-like wailing of an 18000rpm V10 is just something to behold. It puts a dang smile on your face.

To argue that quieter is better because some people might need to wear earplugs is like arguing that rock concerts should be played at half the volume so people can hear other talk better while a band is playing. It would be dire. The sheer potential need for ear protection is exactly part of the awe factor. It's amazing. I regularly just looked around after one of these monsters launched off the starting line at the FoS and it was just smiles and nods everywhere. Or another example, I heard this massive wailing in the paddock section and went to see a Benetton being tested and revved with a massive crowd surrounding it. As I got underneath the tent with some others, I totally needed to stick my fingers in my ears, but you know what? That whole crowd was gathered specifically to hear the absolute immensity of that V10. It was the noise that people were attracted to.

You're never gonna convince me that these quieter, lifeless engines are what people actually prefer. Maybe plenty of people are just normalized to it and accept it, but again, that makes the point that these same folks wouldn't complain if the engines were louder and more impressive, either.

100%

[djos]

Have to say, I'm currently listening to a load of LMP cars going past (not sure which - I think it's an open test day for various customers) and the variety of exhaust notes is fantastic.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be in favour of them opening up the PU regs to allow different PU layouts.

Not sure how they'd regulate to keep them in the same of ballpark performance-wise, but that's for people smarter than me.

The current PU's sound ok at full noise, in real life - however, at idle they sound like a bag of spanners being thrown around. I think the main problem is the TV broadcast - for as long as I can recall, they've used something like dynamic range compression. This ruins the sound and gives the impression F1 cars are powered by vacuum cleaners.

I suspect the '26 engines will sound better, simply because the MGU-H is gone.

[sp8472]

Have to say, I'm currently listening to a load of LMP cars going past (not sure which - I think it's an open test day for various customers) and the variety of exhaust notes is fantastic.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be in favour of them opening up the PU regs to allow different PU layouts.

Not sure how they'd regulate to keep them in the same of ballpark performance-wise, but that's for people smarter than me.

I have always like the idea of opening up the regulation and allowing innovation in engine design. Set a maximum amount of energy that can be used, for example the energy contained in 100kg of fuel. Then let teams decide how they want to use that energy to get their car to the end of the race.

There will likely be a range of solutions to this problem from small turbo charged engines that can run flat out the whole race to larger displacement engines that would need to conserve fuel but are capable of significant bursts of speed. It would also allow for that energy to be used as electricity for full or partial EVs if that is seen by some as the best technological solution.

Cost would always be argued as a reason not to. But the cost cap would also encourage efficient development. At least this way manufacturers can peruse technology they see as relevant, rather than being forced by F1 to invest in what they think is best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[djos]

Have to say, I'm currently listening to a load of LMP cars going past (not sure which - I think it's an open test day for various customers) and the variety of exhaust notes is fantastic.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be in favour of them opening up the PU regs to allow different PU layouts.

Not sure how they'd regulate to keep them in the same of ballpark performance-wise, but that's for people smarter than me.

I have always like the idea of opening up the regulation and allowing innovation in engine design. Set a maximum amount of energy that can be used, for example the energy contained in 100kg of fuel. Then let teams decide how they want to use that energy to get their car to the end of the race.

There will likely be a range of solutions to this problem from small turbo charged engines that can run flat out the whole race to larger displacement engines that would need to conserve fuel but are capable of significant bursts of speed. It would also allow for that energy to be used as electricity for full or partial EVs if that is seen by some as the best technological solution.

Cost would always be argued as a reason not to. But the cost cap would also encourage efficient development. At least this way manufacturers can peruse technology they see as relevant, rather than being forced by F1 to invest in what they think is best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even back in the day's of the 3.5 Litre regs, by the end of the era, everyone was running V10's because they offered the best performance compromise.

F1 always has a convergence of solutions, and IMO it is very unlikely that an open set of regs, with defined limits, would result in much variation between OEM's. Especially in an era of digital design and testing.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Have to say, I'm currently listening to a load of LMP cars going past (not sure which - I think it's an open test day for various customers) and the variety of exhaust notes is fantastic.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be in favour of them opening up the PU regs to allow different PU layouts.

Not sure how they'd regulate to keep them in the same of ballpark performance-wise, but that's for people smarter than me.

The current PU's sound ok at full noise, in real life - however, at idle they sound like a bag of spanners being thrown around. I think the main problem is the TV broadcast - for as long as I can recall, they've used something like dynamic range compression. This ruins the sound and gives the impression F1 cars are powered by vacuum cleaners.

I suspect the '26 engines will sound better, simply because the MGU-H is gone.

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head there. The mics are poorly placed and the sound is definitely compressed, whether at source or during production. The first time I heard one of the current PU in person, I was surprised by just how much mid range and bass there is to the sound - that is completely lost in the TV feed.

[djos]

Have to say, I'm currently listening to a load of LMP cars going past (not sure which - I think it's an open test day for various customers) and the variety of exhaust notes is fantastic.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be in favour of them opening up the PU regs to allow different PU layouts.

Not sure how they'd regulate to keep them in the same of ballpark performance-wise, but that's for people smarter than me.

The current PU's sound ok at full noise, in real life - however, at idle they sound like a bag of spanners being thrown around. I think the main problem is the TV broadcast - for as long as I can recall, they've used something like dynamic range compression. This ruins the sound and gives the impression F1 cars are powered by vacuum cleaners.

I suspect the '26 engines will sound better, simply because the MGU-H is gone.

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head there. The mics are poorly placed and the sound is definitely compressed, whether at source or during production. The first time I heard one of the current PU in person, I was surprised by just how much mid range and bass there is to the sound - that is completely lost in the TV feed.

Not wrong, I’ve got better sounding audio of the cars shot on my iPhone!